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Gabor Nemeth
Does anybody have any info on this pilot? Supposedly had 26 kills while flying Bf 109's, then had 4 flights in the Me 163 and finished the war flying the Me 262. He is a Hungarian national. At one point his Staffelkapitän was Maj. Erich Rudorffer.
Anything is welcome, Thanks, Norbert |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Norbert,
I'm afraid, some of your details are incorrect about him, I'll drop you a pm soon. Regards, |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
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Re: Gabor Nemeth
I Hope I did not start something unwanted. Gabor is still alive and living about 50 km south of my residence. I do not wish to cause him any trouble,
Norbert |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Norbert,
The pm was sent. Not need to worry, I just want to fix and investigate some statements in private and do not post it in public first, because the latter may cause to me some headache later. I did it twice in Hungary (some years ago) and just targeted myself for many continuous primitive personal attacks. I just want to avoid it. Dénes, Not necessary to enlighten me about the purpose of this forum. I know very well, what is your main problem here (you interested in only for your personal benefits), but it is totally off-topic here... |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
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If you would bother to check my posts here, and on the previous versions of the forum (I am active since the very beginning of Ruy's launching of the initial Luftwaffe forum about ten years now), you would see that I always try to offer answers and information, even photos, whenever I can, and sometimes I also receive answers from most forum members. That's the real purpose of this international discussion forum, a gathering of likeminded people, who try to help each other - purpose which I tought to remind you, in view of your peculiar activity over here. :( |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Csaba, Denes,
At this point I have to agree with Denes (although you both are good researchers and friends of mine, what I hope will stay unchanged) The forum is public...so when someone asks a question, he hopes for reply. If there is a reaction, the reaction should be to the point with some info...not like "I will tell only on private basis"... There is a PM and email option for users who want to react, who want to help but does not want to share info on public place... I understand that sometimes information is too hot and too exclusive that is hard to put it on to the discussion. But once you start, you have to finish... |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Hi All,
well since I made the request for info let me tell you that I do not care if the response is private or not. I rather have a private response then non at all, as it turns out to be in this case. Thanks, Norbert |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
After this unpleasant and unexpected interlude, let's return to the topic.
If Gabor Nemeth indeed had 26 'kills', then he certainly scored them while flying with the Luftwaffe (perhaps he was a Volksdeutsch from Hungary) and not with the Hungarian air force. His name does not appear in my extensive list of Hungarian airmen. In order to find out more about him, we would need at least the ID of the Luftwaffe unit he served in while flying on Bf 109 and scoring his victories. Also, where and when did he earn his wings? Norbert, can you find out these details? |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Thanks for getting back on topic. The kills are on the Bf 109 and he said his Staffelkapitän was Maj, Erich Rudorffer. That would possibly put him with either JG 2, 54 and later maybe 7. The info I have is second hand. A friend of mine listened to stories told by him regarding his service in the Luftwaffe. But this was more than 20 Jears ago. Right now Nemeth is in questionable health and I think 91 years old. He was an officer by rank. He also had 3 to 4 flights in the Me 163. During his last flight he possibly damaged a B-17 during a suprise encounter while on a training flight. He has no kills on the Me 163 or the 262. He was a British POW and interogated in England after the war.
We are trying to get in touch with him but as I said his health is poor. This is all I have so far. Thanks for all the effords from everybody, Norbert |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
I have the air victory claims checked for the unit headed by Rudorffer, from 1943 to Febr. 1944, when they were flying largely on Bf 109s. I found no official air victory assigned to 'Gábor Németh'. However, the records are not complete.
Norbert, it would be very nice if you could interview him, while it's not too late... Keep us informed, please. |
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Well, well... As I said above, I do not post something publicly in this case without a 100% sure proof. Your only problem is, that you are picking info from forum posts instead of the research and wanted to hear something here. Thanks for criticizing my 'peculiar' activity. If you wish, here are some info about your ‘peculiar’ style and some proofs for my ‘accusation’ against you, since it is a fact, that you are interested in only for your personal benefits, nothing more. Maybe worth to read it for some foreigners... Recently you were warned by a Hungarian researching group because of your incorrect researching manner (without effect). When you asked me many years ago for my assistance, I offered you the opportunity of the joint publications. You instantly refused it (since you need only my unpublished materials to publish them under your name). Our totally one-sided ‘correspondence’ sounds only about, that you – sometimes even pretty aggressively – pressure me for my unpublished materials and send me your manuscripts to correct and expand them, and after you got, what you wanted, many times simply forgot to say: ‘thanks’. Some other researchers complained me about your manner as well: in the most interesting case, you asked somebody for some cooperation and to exchange materials. After you got from him, what you wanted (some nice unpublished materials), the ‘cooperation’ instantly ended (you sent in return nothing, even just a ‘thanks’). About your help for the members of this forum: a member of this forum complained me about you as well: he asked something from you in private about the Romanian Air Force and you refused to help (I always helped everyone and sent many unpublished materials as well for everyone, not just well known things). If we are talking about the public posts and only about the Royal Hungarian Air Force, your posts here are not as breath-taking as well. Here is an example: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...4331#post24331 Before I posted the real information, you were not able to say anything. After that, you posted just erroneous info, since: 1. they were not the only Hungarian ferry unit 2. they moved to Neuruppin in September, not in August 3. they were re-trained to the Fw 190 in May, not in August, they got just some combat training in Neuruppin in September 4. this squadron later was do subordinated to the III./JG 11 5. they do flew few combat sorties over the Ardennes in December, and not with Fw 190F's but with Fw 190A-8's of the German Gruppe (literally everything is wrong, whyt you have written here) About your research regarding the Royal Hungarian Air Force: you don’t visit Hungarian Archives. How many times did you visit the Hungarian Military Archive? Once or twice for few hours? Or less? During decades? Have you ever visited any other Hungarian Archives? No? I spent many years in Hungarian Archives (I spent literally months in every year in archives for a long period and still doing this) How many times did you visit the Bundesarchiv-Militärarchiv? Never? I spent three months there (and I was in the BA-MA in every weekdays in this period) How many Hungarian veterans did you visit? One, two, three? And how many families did you visit? More, than three? I visited more, than 70 veterans and hundreds of families… And I do not use them one sidedly, and leave them, after I got what I need: I help them in every possible way, so I have very good contact with them (with the sadly few remained veterans and with the families as well) So, for you, the research of the RHAF sounds only about the exploitation of the real researchers, using the published Hungarian materials and pick forum posts? You have never published anything about the RHAF’s history in Hungary (no wonder, since you don’t have unpublished materials – I published for a long period many articles with unpublished details, based on my own research) I published my first book about the RHAF – my aces book - only after an extremely long and intensive, unbelievable hard research, and after I not just graduated as a historian in a university, but after I received my summa cum laude PhD about the history of the Royal Hungarian Air Force in WW II (altough I do not use my degree, to me, it was a must to do first, to learn a lot about the real research) What was your first comment about the aces book? ‘To me, it contains nothing new’ (not surprisingly, the few fellows, who are really researched the topic, not just pickers, all said, that it contains a very high number of unpublished details, which is the reality, of course) Your satement is not just not true, but very unfair as well. You won’t be a bigger man or a greater ‘aviation historian’ with ‘international fame’ (as you introduce yourself) with this kind of statements and you just discredit my really hard work (that's why I posted above the 'slight' difference between your research and mine). The situation is similar with my Ace of Hearts book: altough it was not published, yet, you are already discredit it’s value in some way. It the book’s topic, when Mirek asked about the 1/3.’s kills, compare with the Soviet sources, you posted, that these are ‘already included in the first volume of the Barbarossa to Odessa’ and ‘the basic facts are all published in it’(i. e. in your book). Are you sure, that the exaggerated self-reliance is enough alone? Firstly, my aces book contains many details from 1941 already (engagements and losses from both side’s view) Secondly: the first volume of the Barbarossa to Odessa contains nothing about the 1/3. ‘s kills and about their Soviet opponents, since that book covers the period only till the end of July (where were these kills ‘already included’?) Third comment: the Barbarossa to Odessa, altough it is a very good book, does not contains ‘all the basic facts’ about the Hungarians, as you stated (and do not contains anything unpublished about the RHAF, as you stated it in two places in Hungary). But it contains many errors about the RHAF (including about the 2/3’s claims as well). A little bit strange, that you are even not able to copy-paste correctly the ‘basic facts’, which were published many times in Hungary. Fourth comment, particularly about the 1/3’s claims. If you know everything (including such a basic things, like the air victories of the 1/3.), just tell me here and now: When did 2nd Lt. Seres score his fourth air victory and where, and in which way was it confirmed to him. Im sure, that after the release of my Ace of Hearts book, you will know everything instantly (as usual), but say it now. By the way you have got sometimes indirect help from me as well, with interesting results. For example some months ago a friend of mine, a son of a Hungarian WW II pilot said to me, that you asked some of his photos and what is my opinion about this, should he helps, or not (I guess, he just heard earlier something disappointing about you, that’s why he asked me about this). I said to him, that ‘of course, you should help to him’. When next time we meet again, he said, that he had to re-scan his photos many times, because you were not satisfied with the quality (altough he is working in the computer business since many decades and knows well, what is the necessary resolution for printing) After you got the final version, he said, that ‘I hope, you will send me a complimentary copy of the book for the photos.’ Your brief answer was a big no, with the comment, that it will be an expensive book, so no way... Well, in fact, the photo copyright usage fees are the really expensive ones, not a copy of a book (I bought many photos from Koblenz and from Hungarian Archives and of course, I am talking about the usage copyright fees in the publications, not about the basic fees, when you obtain a picture from them). And sending a complimentary copy for contribution, especially for nice unpublished photos - which not just save you a lots of money, since you can use them instead of museum ones, but shows something unknown earlier - is a basic thing, without asking for it by the photo owner (but of course only for the researchers, who are not looking for only their own benefits) Just some contrast: I deliberately chosen a publisher for my aces book (and for my Ace of Hearts book as well), which is selling his books as cheap, as possible, to making these books available to everyone easily (even with the consequence, that it is very seriously uneconomic to me financially, since I spent not just enormous high number of hours with my research, but an enormous high amount of money as well, and nothing returned back). But it is good to me, I wanted to do it as cheap as possible to available everyone (altough I’m not a rich man). Additionally, I sent approximately 50 complimentary copies from the aces book all around the world sometimes for even a totally insignificant contribution (and spent more, than 35% of my low royalty for these books and for the shipping). Considering the above written facts, it is strange, that you are so surprised in my post. Showing this face for the public and acting very different in fact is a hypocrisy. |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
OK Dénes and Csaba:
This has gone far enough. You are both good researchers and contribute much valuable information to this Forum. Please return to the thread's topic or I will lock this thread. Do not continue with personal attacks. I do not care what grievances either of you have with one another. Take it off board. |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Csaba Becze. I see that it took you about five days to put together your vitriolic personal attack against my person. Instead, I think you should have used your precious spare time for something more constructive, more positive - for example writing a few sentences for a material related to the history of aviation we both try to reconstruct.
We would all certainly be more ahead. What can I say, most of your accusations are unfounded and therefore obviously lacks any proof, except your word. Referring to unnamed persons when accusing me is not only unfair, it’s outright disgusting. Enough to say that no one contacted me in regards of the accusations you threw upon me. I will tackle just one issue you raised. I did visit the Hungarian military archives, several times, much earlier than you ever set your foot into the institution (between 1989-1992), as did the photo archives, in the time when it was still called the ‘Munkasmozgalmi muzeum’ (Museum of the Workers’ Movement), or so. Of course, I spent less time there then I wished for, but there was an ocean between me and the Hungarian archives, which greatly hindered access. Even so, almost every time I visited Europe I went for as many days as I could afford timewise to do research in various archives. For example, last time I was in Rumania, in Pitesti, for ten days this past August, to study for the second volume of my book, ‘From Barbarossa to Odessa’. If you want proof, just let me know. And yes, I did visit Bundesarchiv in Germany as well. Again, I can give you proof, if you wish. I spent time in the Canadian and Bulgarian archives, too. And so on. Moreover, it is not necessary to visit a particular archive to get primary information. It’s also enough to order microfilms (I have about 20 reels from NARA), or order photocopies of documents, or entire ‘fonds’ (I have several thousands such copies). Finally, you can pay someone to do the research in lieu of you, if you have no possibility to do research personally. I did this in regards to the Hungarian archives, and paid a six-figure sum to a well-known and respected researcher. Again, if you want proof I can give it to you – privately. However, I bet all these details don’t really count for you, as you have apparently a beef against my person – probably the ‘sour grape’ syndrome (see below). Take for example, the last book I co-authored (being also the project leader): ‘From Barbarossa to Odessa’ – a copy of which I sent you for a fair price and free of any postal charges, despite not asking you to contribute with anything (at that point I thought that we are colleagues in good faith. Apparently, I was dead wrong). Would you care to point out what sizeable part did I copy from the Internet, or various forums, like this one, as you allege? Of course, I did ask questions here, for small details, or for ‘peer review’ of a part, which is a normal thing to do. After all, that’s why we are here, on this discussion forum, aren’t we? This is the first time in 20+ years while I am researching the history of aviation and writing about it that I am subject to such a vicious personal attack. There must be a good reason to it. And it’s certainly not me. Your post is apparently more about how good you and your research are, and how bad my person and my research is. So be it, if you say so. Who cares? Take my advice, Csaba Becze. As I said, use up your extra energies to create something useful, something lasting, not such senseless and baseless pamphlet, which serves nothing and no one gives a damn about. If you cannot hold hatred for yourself, then please take it somewhere else. I hope I don't speak only my mind when I state this: you – or anyone else who behaves in the same manner - are not welcome here. P.S. The one thing that actually hurts me is that a fellow Hungarian, who also researches the history of aviation, thus should behave like a colleague, chose rather to act unprofessionally. Or is this exactly the root of your problem? |
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Re: Gabor Nemeth
Csaba, Denes,
Nekünk igozan elegen van... Csak tudomany kerünk, nem veretketészek... Kösz szép! We have really enough.. All we ask for is knowledge, not streetfighting... Thanks Marc |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Dénes,
Just do not combine ... I did not collect anything (to finding that quoted post was approx 2. min) I written the answer 5 days later, since I’m very busy (yes, with the research, as always, not not with the ‘collect fake accusations against you’, as you suggested below). I written facts (and it was me, who tried to calm down the fellow, who were were angry against you in that Hungarian researching group – maybe I was wrong). Evidently I do not publish the names without their former permission (how do you think it?) But if it is necessary, they will evidently confirm everything (but after your message, I guess, rather in private to anyone, not in public, to avoid the similar kind of answers). By the way I don’t understand your false indignation, because you should know these names very well, since you acted them with the below written way. Or the list is too long with similar stories to remember these ones? I talked about the research for Hungarian materials, not Romanian or whatever else. You visited Koblenz only, not Freiburg (I asked Freiburg) And I know very well, that it is possible to order microfilms as well (not necessary to enlighten me about it, since you are interested in my microfilms as well, instead of order your own ones) I’m duly impressed about that six-figure sum to a Hungarian researcher. Could you enlighten me, who got it? I justifyed above, why I written something about me (to show the difference, nothing more) Yes, I ordered a copy of the From Barbarossa to Odessa from you, since it was not available at this time at my preferred shops and offered 30 EUR for it: you said, 25 EUR is enough (the shipping is maximum 2-3 EUR inboard Hungary) and I thanked it. By the way, it is available now at my favourite bookshop for 28 USD (which is approx 20 EUR) And you did ask my help in some way for that project as well (and I helped Dmitriy Karlenko too for it, since he is a very correct and nice man) With many parts of this post you just label yourself and not necessary to answer to it: but could you explain me, why should I be so envy of you, why the grape is so sour to me? I don't understand it (our brains working not a bit different way) By the way, you ‘forgot’ to answer the only aviation related question below (2ndLt. Seres) And at last. Just do not give me this kind of advices if I do not give you similar ones. John, I'm sorry about that. He asked for proofs, so I posted proofs. If you wish, just close the topic, since it is far off-topic, of course (and if you are interested in the unnamed persons, just drop me a pm and you will hear the truth from them) |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
I don't wish to add anything. It's pointless, and I would just repeat myself.
Csaba, you know my e-mail, so if you have a personal problem with me, contact me directly - as you should have done from the very beginning, that would have been the professional way. I apologise to the readers for this unwanted, ugly episode. |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Hello guys,
I hope Csaba and Dénes will stop this variance. In my opinion better if they will work together in the future time. I wish good collective work for them. Kind regards, GaraiB |
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http://www.ww2hunhistory.org/ He didn't even reply to my offer... |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
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If people want to rehearse personal disputes, they can do it by email between themselves. They don't need to bring it to this forum, do they? |
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yes, it is true, you written this embrionic idea there, but you said, that it is just sometime after 2010. It is so long term, that I'm not able to answer, since I don't know, even what will I do and where I will be at the end of 2008... Additionally, you said, that we should do it, just you and I, without others: you will do the Romanian and Bulgarian part and I should do the Hungarian and Slovakian. I'm not an expert of everything, like you: to me, the Slovak topic is the Slovak researcher's cup of tea (I written my Baptism of fire project with the strong mark, that I'm not an expert of the Slovak aviation so it was written rather from the Hungarian point of view, altough probably this particular sentence was deleted from the final text) I can write a material in this case only about the Hungarians (but again - I have no idea now, what will I do 3, 4 or more years later, so I'm not able to say anything for that embrionic idea - I have few hazy joint projects without deadlines, which I accepted theoretically - part of them will never realise, I guess -, but officially, for such a long term, I can say nothing for any plans) By the way, in the cited forum, I written my opinion (in Hungarian language) about the one sided research as well to you (and after that happened, that you offered that project). But it is again far off-topic here, I guess, we should let the topic to die. |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Thank you all for the input. I regret causing such a dispute among researchers. To no avail I might add.
Maybe he changed his name after the war????? Regards, Norbert |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Norbert,
As I mentioned you in private, it is a chance, that he changed his name after the war. After 1945, significant number of Hungarian citizens with German roots changed their family names to Hungarian ones to avoid the relocation to Germany (since many German ethnic citizens had to move to Germany, maybe you have heard about the former German foreign minister, Joschka Fischer - his family had to leave Hungary as well: he was born in Germany already, but still got a Hungarian first name, the József/Jóska/Joschka) Few pilots changed their family names as well (one is still living in Hungary, who made it) You should ask him or his family about it (I don't know any Hungarian pilots with 26 kills at the Luftwaffe, but if he was only the pilot of the Luftwaffe and never the Hungarian Air Force, it is a possibility) |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
The possibility Csaba raised about a name change is quite real. I have already mentioned earlier that he might be a Volksdeutsch born in Hungary, and that he might have served only in the Luftwaffe. The actual answers can be given only by him (or his family).
By the way, the Hungarian word 'Német(h)' means 'German'. :) |
Re: Gabor Nemeth
Theank you for the replies. I'm at the moment trying to get in touch with him. Hopefully we will shed some light on the situation.
I think it is very likely that he changed his name. The only question remains: "what was his name before that". Hopefully we will find out. Norbert |
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