Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Gentlemen: Wondering if some one could confirm for me if Conrad von Bothmer and Phillip von Bothmer are the same man? If so ,did he serve in I/ZG-52 prior to transfering to II/NJG-1 as Gruppe Kdr. in late June,1940? And if possible,the position he held with that unit prior to transfer. Cheers. Dean

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

As far as I can see Dean never received a reaction on his question. I have the same question.
Holm at www.ww2.dk says that Kommandeur of II./NJG 1 and later III./NJG 1 was Hptm. Conrad von Bothmer till November 1st, 1940. But Falck in ‘Falkenjahre’ called this Kommandeur, Philipp von Bothmer.
However the von Bothmer in J/88 and I./ZG 52 was a Dietrich von Bothmer. This Dietrich von Bothmer was, according to the VDK, buried at Duisburg-Waldfriedhof in grave 434 in block E, row 39. He was born at November 25th, 1912 in Hannover. His date of death, November 7th, 1940, fits well with what Falck describes in the book. He says that von Bothmer committed suicide in the days after Oktober 31st, 1940.
So, I almost can come to the conclusion that Holm’s Conrad and Falck’s Philipp are the same person as Dietrich von Bothmer. But why these different names?

Jaap Woortman

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

For the record Jaap, in their "Die Deutsche Luftwaffe - Zerstorer-und Nachtjagdverband, Teil 1" [VDM, 2006] Meyer & Stipdonk have him as Hptm.Dietrich von Bothmer, Kommandeure of Stab II./NJG1 from 22.06.40 until 01.07.1940 and Kommandeure of Stab III./NJG1 from 01.07.1940 until 07.11.1940.

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

We have only two in our data base: Conrad (Konrad) and Dietrich. Since Dietrich was no more after 7 Nov 40, then the following must be for Conrad?

18.02.43 trf from Kdo. der Erprobungsstellen d.Lw. to SKG 10. 25.05.43 in SKG 10, ordered to Erprobungskdo. 25 for temporary duty (canceled).

Conrad flew with 5./KG 26 during 1939-40.

Every little piece helps solve the puzzle.

HLdeZ/DGS

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Thank you guys.
I will send my thoughts together with your information and sources to Holm.
Hopefully Dean has now the answer to his question.
I will send him a pm.
In the appendix a picture of Dietrich von Bothmer from I./ZG 52.
Source: Axis History Forum.

Jaap

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Is there any information as to the reason behind his suicide Japp?

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Hello Max,

von Bothmer took responsibility for a party celebrated by his nightfighter Gruppe which went out of hand (not unusual among air force pilots). As skulptures of Adolf Hitler bore remains of the eaten fish the night before - an act of blasphemy which was reported along NSDAP lines up to the highest levels - a severe response could be espected. von Bother did not want to wait for this punishment and shot himself in a hotel.

A detailed account can be found in Wolfgang Falck's book Falkenjahre

All the best and Happy New Year ! Marcel

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

I have Dietrich von Bothmer's death notice-the person is exactly the same as what Jaap posted apart from he is a Hptm in the photo and it says:

Hptm und Gruppenkommandeur der Luftwaffe
gen. Hannover 25.11.12
verunglücht in November 1940
Inhaber des EK1 und 2 kl.1939
des Sapnienkreuzes in gold und anderer Auszeichnungen
vermählt mit Gerda Schlegtendal

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Very interesting Marcel, thank you for the reply. And a Happy New Year to you and all at 12 O' Clock High!

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

René Brachten brought to my attention in an email that both Dietrich and Philipp could both be christian names of the same Hptm von Bothmer.
I think he could be right, but I have never seen his full name then.
Any thoughts or prove of this good idea?
René is not at home during these days and is able to check his files next week.

Jaap

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

The NVM says only Dietrich.

John

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Only to confirm the hypothesis, Jaap. Most everyone has one or more middle names, including myself. Quite often, a first son will be given the same first name as the father, but the family and friends will use his middle name to avoid confusion with the father. This is exactly the situation in my case.

So Dietrich was probably Dietrich Philipp von Bothmer; Dietrich being his legal and official first name but everyone who knew him called him Philipp which, in effect, was both his middle name and his nickname.

L.

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Larry,

I agree, but would it not be 'normal' that in the files of the VDK all his christian names should be mentioned?

John, René send me this morning the transcription of the NVM.
Duisburg 07.11.1940 02:00 Uhr.,
Stab III.NJG 1 Hptm. Grp.Kmdr. Dietrich von Bothmer III.NJG 1 Ekm. 69022/1, Geb. 25.11.1912 Hanover,
Grablage: Ehrenfriedhof Duisburg, Duisburger Chaussee.

There is something strange about this NVM. Place of death: Duisburg.
When I take 'Falkenjahre' page 198 and I qoute:"Philipp von Bothmer traf am späten vormittag in Deelen ein und schilderte mir beim Mittagessen, was sich zugetragen hatte. Vorsorglich war ihm von meinem Stab schon ein Hotelzimmer besorgt worden, und dorthin schickte ich ihn nun....."
I cannot image that Stab/NJG 1 had organized a hotelroom in Duisburg.
Arnhem would make more sense to me. I think. Strange.

Jaap

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Strangely, all the Christian names appear in their Luftwaffe officer personnel records but not in the Luftwaffenpersonalamt officer assignment orders or in the BA-ZNS/BA-MA Karteikarten. The latter two just give the official Christian name, e.g., Karl or Karl-Heinz, Siegfried or Siegfried-Otto, etc., followed by the surname or last name. So if you had a Dietrich Philipp Adolf Bernhardt von Bothmer, the "Philipp Adolf Bernhardt" would only appear in his officer personnel records folder.

As for the VDK specifically, I will defer to others on that question because I rarely use VDK and therefore I am unfamiliar with their policy.

L.

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Jaap,

If Von Bothmer committed suicide at Deelen he would have been buried at Arnhem and not in Duisburg. In a sense it is already strange that he was buried in Duisburg, most of the time (at that time period) KIA were stil heimatüberführt....aiiii... I see now that his home address was at Duisburg too...so nothing strange about being buried in Duisburg (as long as he died there....).

J.

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

John,

Burial place seems logical, but I can hardly believe that Duisburg was the place where he committed suicide.
Can you see who signed the NVM? Falck?

Jaap

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Major Friedberg (Major beim Stabe) signed as stellv. Gruppenkommandeur.

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Greetings

Thank you Jaap, for reopening this thread. Certainly some additional interesting info here.
Peter Cornwell did provide me with some info on von Bothmer via a PM some time ago. Peter had stated at that time that he believed von Bothmer was St/Kpt. of 1/ZG52 (later 4/ZG2) prior to Falck's request for his transfer to Gr/Kdr. III/NJG1.
I was wondering, by chance, if anyone had uncovered any details on victory claims for him, aside from his early war claim with 1/JGr152?
Thanks as well for the Photo.

Cheers

Dean

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Dean,

I am working on his victories.

13.11.1936 Lt. Dietrich von Bothmer J/88 I-15
8.12.1936 Lt. Dietrich von Bothmer J/88 I-16
20.9.1939 Oblt. Dietrich von Bothmer Stab/JGr. 152 Bloch

As soon I have more details I will publish them here.
It's correct that Dietrich von Bothmer was Staffelkaptän of 1./ZG 52 before he became Gr.Kdr. of II./NJG1 and later III./NJG 1.
I am now looking for the date he left 1./ZG 52 and who was his successor in this Staffel and/or in 4./ZG 2.

Jaap

Re: Hptm. von Bothmer
 

Dear friends,

I have read Falck’s book Falkenjahre again, trying to find out when von Bothmer went over from I./ZG 52 to II./NJG 1 or IV.(N)/JG 2. Now I have some problems with data mentioned by Wolfgang Falck in his publication “Falkenjahre, Erinnerungen 1910-2003. Moosburg. 2003. First I wanted to send my questions to Kurt Braatz, the publisher, but maybe it’s better to ask your opinion first.
In many publications June 22nd ,1940 is mentioned as an important date in the history of the “Nachtjagd” and to be more specific in the birth of NJG 1. Also Falck has mentioned this date in his book. See below for the quote’s, taken from Falkenjahre, I would like to ask your attention for.

Falkenjahre. Page 153.
Am 18. Juni 1940 traf der Befehl ein, dass die I./ZG 1 aus dem Verband mit dem ZG 76 auszuscheiden und nach Düsseldorf zu verlegen habe. Die 1. Staffel solle an der Westfront bleiben und einer Erprobungsgruppe angegliedert werden.

Falkenjahre. Page 174.
Philipp von Bothmer hatte bereits am 22.Juni die II.Gruppe übernommen.

Falkenjahre. Page 158.
Am 25. Juni 1940 erhielt ich einen merkwürdigen Anruf van höherer Stelle. lch habe mich, so wies mich der Anrufer an, am nächsten Morgen im Gästehaus des Generals der Flieger Friedrich Christiansen im niederländischen Wassenaar zu melden.

Falkenjahre. Page 160.
Heute, am 26. Juni 1940, sei der Tag gekommen, an dem er, Hermann Göring, als Oberbefehlshaber der Luftwaffe des Grossdeutschen Reiches befehle, deren erstes Nachtjagdgeschwader aufzustellen, und dessen Kommodore sei niemand anderes als - ich. Das NJG 1 werde zunächst aus zwei Gruppen gebildet, nämlich der I./ZG 1, die ich ja bereits führte, und der IV./JG 2 Richthofen, die in Mönchengladbach liege und nunmehr zur II./NJG 1 umbenannt werde.
Nun folgten Befehle, wie sie nur von Göring kommen konnten und in geordneten militärischen Dienstverhältnissen völlig undenkbar gewesen wären. Erstens, so trug er mir auf, habe ich sofort nach meiner Rückkehr den Kommandeur der IV./JG 2, Major Albert Blumensaat nach Hause zu schicken; er solle dort abwarten, bis er Befehle zu seiner weiteren Verwendung erhalte. Zweitens habe ich umgehend einen Ersatz für Blumensaat zu benennen. Drittens habe ich ebenfalls sofort nach meiner Rückkehr mit dem Kommandeur des Flakregiments 1 in Düsseldorf, Oberstleutnant Wilhelm Fichter Verbindung aufzunehmen und ihn darüber zu informieren, dass ich der Kommodore des neuen NJG 1 geworden sei, in welchem die IV./JG 2 mit sofortiger Wirkung aufgehe.

Falkenjahre. Page 164.
Für seine Stelle forderte ich Hauptmann Philipp von Bothmer an, der mit seiner Staffel irgendwo in Westfrankreich nicht weit von der Atlantikküste lag. Göring willigte sofort in Philipp von Bothmers Versetzung zum NJG 1 ein. Bis dahin wurde Bothmers neue Gruppe von Oberleutnant Johannes Steinhoff geführt, dem dienstältesten Staffelkapitän.

Falkenjahre. Page 174.
Schweren Herzens übergab ich am 1.Juli 1940 meine I.Gruppe an meinem Freund Günther Radusch.

Falkenjahre. Page 167.
Am 19.Juli 1940, gut drei Wochen, nachdem ich zum jüngsten Kommodore der Luftwaffe ernannt worden war, folgte meine beförderung zum Major.

Discussion.
What I do not understand is that von Bothmer has taken over command of IV.(N)/JG 2 (see quote from page 174) before June 26th, 1940. At this date NJG 1 was formed in the meeting with Göring and Falck was ordered to send Blumensaat “home”. At page 164 he even says that Steinhoff has taken over command from Blumensaat till von Bothmer has arrived. So von Bothmer has not taken over command at June 26th, 1940. Is here the memory of Falck playing tricks with him and us? Or is it a typo? See also http://www.ww2.dk/air/njagd/njg1.htm and “Geschichte der deutschen Nachtjagd 1917-1945”, page 25, were June 22nd, 1940 has been mentioned several times. Where does this date June 22nd, 1940 comes from? I hope someone could help.

Jaap