B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Hello,
I am trying to research a victory claim by Georg Peter Eder of 6/JG1 on 29 April 1944. I have asked this question on the Luftwaffe forum without any luck. Eder claimed both a B17, at 10:58 and a P47 in this combat and was awarded victories for both. I am trying to research the B17 claim. This is probably like searching for a needle in a haystack!

I know this raid on Berlin involved many aircraft from both the Luftwaffe and the USAF and many B17s shot down but does anyone know which B17 Eder could have shot down? I know this is a long shot and I have looked at the fine thread on the forum regarding this raid, but does anyone have any information on 'Eder' aircraft.
Regards,

Is there a published source containing information on daily B17 losses?
Thank-you,
Andy

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Hi Andy!
To start with here is a list of all B-17 reported missing (MACR) for
that date. Most of these aircraft crashed, but MACR's were
also filed if a crewmember f.ex. was killed aboard.
The list sorrily isn't complete regarding the crashsites. But some
came down near Braunschweig, try Google Maps.
bye,
good luck

MACR Serial Nickname Group Squadron Pilot Crashplace Country

4236 42-31353 Queenie 91 323
4240 42-31556 306 368 S of Hecklingen near Stassfurt
4242 42-102448 Mexican Hay Ride 384 545 Lt. Bouvier Berlin D
4243 42-31393 Snafu 388 560 WalkerD Parsay F
4244 42-37980 DAT'S GOOT 388 562 Coyner 20 mil W Ypres BE
4245 42-102526 390 571 Geitsche
4246 42-31124 447 711
4247 42-31144 Rowdy Rebel 447 708 710 Destedt D
4248 42-31161 Spare Parts 447 711
4249 42-31217 Rowdy Rebel; SOLID SENDER 447 710 2Lt Harold M. Paris Eggenstedt D
4250 42-37866 Bloated Body 447 708 Abbenrode D
4251 42-37868 447 708
4252 42-97135 447 710
4253 42-97501 447 711
4254 42-102421 447 709
4255 42-102479 447 708
4260 42-3513 92 326
4261 42-97319 92 326 Peronne F
4344 42-31116 Cawn't Miss
401 614 Lt. Singelton Liers/Liege BE
4345 42-31226 401 613 Lt. Donald E. Butterworth
4346 42-31521 Badland Bat 401 615 Capt. George Gould
4449 42-39920 Karen B 452 729 Nelson near Ruurlo NL
4450 42-39981 Rugged But Right 452 728 Haakenson near Burg D
4453 42-31133 385 551
4454 42-31174 385 551
4456 42-31773 385 548 Laatzen/Gleidingen D
4457 42-97078 385 550
4458 42-97226 385 551
4459 42-97559 385 549
4460 42-107045 385 550
4463 42-31241 City of Wanette 303 427 2nd Lt Howard J. Bohle Sakskøbing-Ødegaard DK
4467 42-31498 Passionate Witch II 94 331 Hassenberg, Bayern D
4468 42-102520 94 332
4469 42-31320 I’LL BE AROUND 95 412 Hamstede D
4470 42-37988 Flag Ship 95 336 Vilberg Nendorf D
4471 42-3158 Max 303 427
4855 42-31343 96 338
? 42-31784 452 729 North Sea

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Hello Frankie,
Thanks for this information. I am very grateful for your time. Where do I start! Any idea of these times of the destruction of these aircraft? Would this information be available anywhere?
Regards,
Andy

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Hi Andy !

The next step probably would be to find out about all the other
a/c in the given list where no crashsites are given. You could try to find each bomb groups homepage as a lot of the heavy bomber groups have one. Then contact the website's staff to learn more.
It's well known that it is quite difficult to match individual Luftwaffe claims
with the actual allied losses since there are "overclaims" (on both sides).


Some more hints:
-try to google for the serials
-http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/
-http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/usafserials.html

bye,
FrankieS

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Thanks for the information Frankie. My task has only just started!
Regards,
Andy

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Are you starting with Tony Woods list of LW claims to pinpoint the time of Eder's claims? I noticed the two claims are 7 minutes apart in the E to SE Brunswick area. I am somewhat dubious about the P-47 claim that far east! but away from my own sources while on the road. The B-17 claim was at 11.05

Everybody was headed for Berlin so that makes it even more difficult to pinpoint the Bomb Group of interest.

Regards, Bill

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

also the single P-47 MACR for that date details a P-47 lost in New Guinea.

Maybe Eder's claim actually was a P-51:
4671 P-51 42-106682 4 334 Barden Lt. John L POW near Liebenrode
4434 P-51 43-12383 354 355 2/Lt. Paul W. Kallas KIA near Goedekkenrode
4422 P-51 43-6424 354 353 Capt. James (NMI) Cannon Kleinleidingen/Grossgleidingen

or maybe (have no crash data):
4224 F-5 42-13124 5
4799 P-38 42-67007 51
4510 P-38 42-66985 51
4406 P-38 42-67447 364 384
4407 P-38 42-67438 364 384
4408 P-38 42-67417 364 384

bye,
FrankieS

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Hello,
Sorry I have taken so long to reply. I have been away from my computer for a few days walking in the hills. It beats working!
I have the combat report for Eder regarding the B17 on this day and the claim is timed at 10:58 and not 11:05. The report states that the aircraft went into a spin and the left wing broke off.
Regards,
Andy

B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

As the new the owner of the said Georg-Peter Eder Abschussmeldung I am hoping that in resurrecting this thread, someone may be able to point myself in the right direction as to possibly putting a B-17 aircraft to this claim.

Whilst fully appreciating the sheer scale of the USAF losses on this raid, I am also aware that there is a vast amount of untapped knowledge among historians and enthusiasts, which might be able to shed a chink of light.

Hopeful in anticipation that something will surface.

Regards Richard.

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

You probably need to start into the Macr's - footnote.com

B17 loss on 29-April-1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

drgondog

Many thanks, that is a very useful website indeed.

From information already posted on this thread and also by Rob Romero on a thread concerning 29-April-1944, it appears the following B-17 aircraft were lost:

B-17 4236 42-31353 91/322 0353 1Lt James F Purdy Jr. KIA Queenie (146th) AA 1142 Wing Broke Off 3KIA/2MIA
B-17 4260 42-3513 92/326 513 Lt Russell M Munson ?
B-17 4261 42-97319 92/326 319 Lt John B Langfeldt ?
B-17 4467 42-31498 94/331 Chias ?
B-17 4468 42-102520 94/332 McClurkin ?
B-17G 4470 42-37988 95/336 Vilberg ?
B-17G 4469 42-31320 95/412 LeaserIll Be Around AA -Crashed near Hamstede/Germany 10POW
B-17F 4471 42-3158 303/427 158 CR-L 2Lt James H Fischer POW Max Ftrs over Target 8KIA/2POW Spare -Last 303 B-17F Lost
B-17G 4463 42-31241 303/427 241 CR-S
2Lt Howard J Bohle Spirit of Wanette AA/Bf 110 Maj. Walter Barte (23) -Crash Landed in Sea NW of Valse at Falster/Lolland Island/Denmark 5KIA/4POW/1EVD
B-17 4240 42-31556 306/368 Lutz ?
B-17-G-50 4242 42-102448 384/545 JD*P Lt. Bouvier ?
B-17 4456 42-31773 385/548 GX-M Johnston Bf-109? Crashed near Laatzen/Gleidingen, Germany. 2 KIA (1 Murdered)8 POW
B-17 4459 42-97559 385/549 Barney Bf-109?
B-17 4457 42-97078 385/550 Henry Bf-109?
B-17 4460 42-107045 385/550 Sexton Bf-109?
B-17 4453 42-31133 385/551 Garza Bf-109?
B-17 4454 42-31174 385/551 Hart Bf-109?
B-17 4458 42-97226 385/551 Huntington Bf-109?
B-17 4243 42-31393 388/560 D E Walker (102nd Mission) AA Parsau/France
B-17 4244 42-37980 388/562 J O Coyner Fighters
B-17G 4245 42-102526 390/571 N Rayburn Severe Damage, one engine smoking, dove into clouds. Crashed at Geitsche/Germany All POW
B-17G-5 4345 42-31226 401/613 2Lt D.E. Butterfoss AA over Target -Crew MIA
B-17G-1 4344 42-31116 401/614 IW-O 2Lt J.H. Singleton Cawnt Miss (60)AA 5KIA/5POW
B-17G-20 4346 42-31521 401/615 Gould Badland Bat AA? -Crew MIA?
B-17 4247 42-31144 447/708 Lt Hayden T Hughes Rowdy Rebel
Miss AmericaFtrs en route Destedt/Germany 9KIA/1POW
B-17 4250 42-37866 447/708 Donahue Bloated Body Ftrs -Crashed near Abbenrode/Germany. 2 KIA/8 POW
B-17 4251 42-37868 447/708 Blom Due Back Ftrs 4 KIA/6 POW
B-17 4255 42-102479 447/708 Farrell ?
B-17 4254 42-102421 447/709 Dowler ?
B-17G-5-BO 4249 42-31217 447/710 IJ-G 2Lt Harold M Paris Rowdy Rebel

My next job will be to exclude those as listed as victims of flak and any others which can be ommited, hopefully narrowing down the B-17 as claimed by Georg-Peter Eder.

Many thanks again.

Regards Richard.

B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Even after removing the B-17 aircraft listed as being shot down by Flak/AA fire, the list is still comprehensive!

In the cold light of day I think that the chances of putting a positive ID on Oberleutnant Georg-Peter Eder's B-17 claim are very thin.

That said, if anyone can add any light to the question from the remaining aircraft listed below, then I can assure you that it will be very well received indeed.

Regards Richard.

B-17 4260 42-3513 92/326 513 Lt Russell M Munson ?
B-17 4261 42-97319 92/326 319 Lt John B Langfeldt ?
B-17 4467 42-31498 94/331 Chias ?
B-17 4468 42-102520 94/332 McClurkin ?
B-17G 4470 42-37988 95/336 Vilberg ?
B-17F 4471 42-3158 303/427 158 CR-L 2Lt James H Fischer POW Max Ftrs over Target 8KIA/2POW Spare -Last 303 B-17F Lost
B-17 4240 42-31556 306/368 Lutz ?
B-17-G-50 4242 42-102448 384/545 JD*P Lt. Bouvier ?
B-17 4459 42-97559 385/549 Barney Bf-109?
B-17 4457 42-97078 385/550 Henry Bf-109?
B-17 4460 42-107045 385/550 Sexton Bf-109?
B-17 4453 42-31133 385/551 Garza Bf-109?
B-17 4454 42-31174 385/551 Hart Bf-109?
B-17 4458 42-97226 385/551 Huntington Bf-109?
B-17 4244 42-37980 388/562 J O Coyner Fighters
B-17G-20 4346 42-31521 401/615 Gould Badland Bat AA? -Crew MIA?
B-17 4247 42-31144 447/708 Lt Hayden T Hughes Rowdy Rebel
Miss AmericaFtrs en route Destedt/Germany 9KIA/1POW
B-17 4251 42-37868 447/708 Blom Due Back Ftrs 4 KIA/6 POW
B-17 4255 42-102479 447/708 Farrell ?
B-17 4254 42-102421 447/709 Dowler ?
B-17G-5-BO 4249 42-31217 447/710 IJ-G 2Lt Harold M Paris Rowdy Rebel

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

Were there 2 different B-17's operating in Europe in 1944 both named Queenie?
I have read here that a B-17 Queenie was lost in April 1944.
I have a photo of my grandfather posing with his crew in front of his b-17 also named Queenie, dated Aug. 1944. So does this mean there were 2 different Queenie's both in Europe in 1944? Incidentally, the noseart on this queenie is different that what I see represented on other pages. It is not the reclining girl in a swimsuit with the wide brim hat. Any info would be appreciated.

Re: B17 loss on 29th April 1944 over Brunswick, Germany
 

there is an Queenie of the 91th BG shot down on 29 april 1944
crashed in berlin
the pilot is MIA and i adopted his name on the wall of missing