Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Hi all,
I wonder if anyone has any information or pictures relating to this incident. I believe it happened between 1938 and 39.
The pilot was named Morris and he was training at Hatfield at the time of the accident.
Thanks in advance for any help that may be available.
Cheers
Gerry

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Incident happened on Sept 4th 1938

Aircraft fell on 2 houses in Dunholme Road on a council housing estate, near Pymmes Park and was a Hawker Audax (not Hart)

Pilot Stanley Robert Morris RAFVR

On ground:

Mrs Gladys Saunders aged 39
Benjamin Saunders aged 43
Derek Saunders aged 8
Roy Saunders age 16 (died in hospital)
Edward Letch aged 20 (died in hospital)
James Letch aged 24 (died in hospital)
Jimmy Tant aged 8
John Eusden aged 35 (died in hospital)
Terence Callaghan aged 3 1/2
Dennis Callaghan aged 13
May Lavinia Callaghan aged 39 (Died Sept 8th 1938)
Doris Callaghan aged 18 (Died Sept 25th 1938)

A lot of other people were injured (around 30) as well

Morris lived at Hampstead, and had disobeyed orders to keep with 3 miles of Hatfield and avoid London, it looks like he was 'showing off' over his home town to me as he was attempting aerobatics at the time (also against orders)

Aircraft from No.1 Elementary and Reserve Flying Training School, Hatfield (run by de Havilland Flying School)

Someone on here should be able to provide a serial

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Hi Paul,
That is a fantastic reply.
I can confirm that he had indeed flown down to London to show off to his girlfriend when the accident occured. I am friends with someone that trained at Hatfield with him and he has often retold stories about Stanley Morris. This wasn't the first time he had disobeyed orders.
Many thanks indeed.
Gerry

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Gerry

If you supply an email address I will send you some bits and pieces. BTW interesting bit about the girlfriend, I had long suspected this, but not confirmed it... This is a common occurrence. I hope someone someday maps incidences of crashes, aerobatics and home towns... it would make an interesting figure!

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Hi Paul,
That would be great, I will supply you with what I know to be factual as well. My e-mail address is as follows:- gedburke3@yahoo.co.uk
Cheers

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

it seems such a very small plane could kill that many people.im amazed.
Gary

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

it amazes me that such a small plane could kill that many on the ground.
Gary

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Serial of Hawker Audax was K7381 Total additional injured was 17 and thewreck went to North Weald and was Stuck of Charge 3.1.39

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

2 seater Hawker Hart (Audax Variant)
Dunholme Road, Edmonton air crash

I was just 6 years old on the afternoon the crash occurred in the afternoon of Sunday 4 September 1938. I was in our garden less than a mile away in Winchmore Hill with my parents and I can remember seeing an aircraft in the sky above above Edmonton
Cemetery to the east of us. The engine was initially running normally, then started making a strange spluttering noise and cut out. The aircraft then fell rapidly away towards the main Cambridge Road to the east and my father said "It is going to crash". I think we heard the the engine restart, as some on the ground witnesses stated, and I seem to recall the noise of the impact as it hit the council houses.

I was quite upset at the time thus that particular event in my early childhood has remained in my mind.

A Times article of 26 September 1938 quoted the Air Ministry as saying the cause of the crash was the pilot's wilful disobedience to standing orders, regarding low flying and aerobatics over a built up area. Furthermore he was only authorised to fly within a 3 mile radius of Hatfield airfield, Edmonton was 13 miles direct flight from Hatfield. He appeared to have throttled back his engine at a height of about 1,000 and executed a dive "The carrying out of this manoeuvre was also contrary to regulations". The article goes on to say the pilot flattened out at the end of the dive and flew in level flight for some distance, before allowing the nose of the aircraft to drop. From that I assume that indicates the engine was operating normally just before the crash. Some eye witnesses near the scene of the crash, suggested that the pilot was frantically waving to warn people he was going to crash.

The general regulations as to aerobatics and flying at low levels over built up areas is then listed in the Air Ministry statement, with the comment "Strong disciplinary action" would be taken against pilots who transgressed flying regulations.

I understand the subsequent inquest resulted in the jury returning a verdict of "Accidental death" as directed by the Coroner apparently. I believe one member of the jury tried to have the inquest adjourned to await the result of the official RAF Board of Enquiry, but that attempt was brushed aside on the grounds that the details of such enquiries were never divulged.

It appears that Sergeant Morris had over-flown Highgate in North London on the morning of the very same day, contrary to instructions and his flight plan. He seems to have displayed a distinct lack of basic flying discipline, and acted irresponsibly with careless disregard for the safety of others. Idle gossip at the time intimated he was showing off to friends or a girlfriend. Whatever the loss of life on the ground was considerable, and probably attributable to it being a Sunday with people at home from work and school.

This recent article, see link below, is in error on some very minor details. Morris had over 100 hours of flying experience according to the Air Ministry, and joined the Royal Auxiliary Air force in 1937.
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/w...c_plane_crash/

British Pathe archives has stills and a video download of their 1938 news film of this truly tragic event.
http://www.britishpathe.com/thumbnai...hword=Edmonton

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

All

Perhaps irrelevant to the tragedy, but the newspaper article shows what is called a makers plate.
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/r.../?type=display
Is this correct? I have no experience myself of any Hawker plates, but what I have gathered Hawker did not use any true c/n on their military aircraft but rather various part plates. The main part was the fuselage and can we be certain this actually is the plate belonging to the fuselage of this Audax?

Best Regards
Stig

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

The Times of 8 September 1938 reported that the Inquest was held on Wednesday 7 September 1938 at the North Middlesex Hospital, Edmonton.

Captain Weighill, an instructor at the Elementary Flying Training School at Hatfield, said that on an earlier flight that Sunday the aircraft piloted by Morris was seen over Highgate between 1200 and 1240 hours. When he landed he just wrote in the flight book that he had been doing what he had been instructed to do, no mention of his totally unauthorised excursion over Highgate. He had no authority the Coroner's Court was told to fly over Edmonton on the final fatal flight.

It was Mr Neil Lawson appearing for the relatives of the then deceased civilians, not a juror, who requested an adjournment pending a full RAF Court of Enquiry. His request was rejected by the Coroner on the grounds that such matters were never revealed to the public.

Several of the injured died after the inquest.

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

This recent article, see link below, is in error on some very minor details. Morris had over 100 hours of flying experience according to the Air Ministry, and joined the Royal Auxiliary Air force in 1937.

Hi Pagem,
Where did you read that Morris had 100 hours of flying experience?
I am interested in this event because I'm in contact with the other pilot that took off that day and had trained with Morris.
His version of events tells me that Morris was still a novice (certainly from other incidents Morris had been involved in in he weeks leading up to the fatal crash). He is also convinced that Morris was showing off to a girlfriend at the time of the accident.
The Letch brothers died of injuries recieved whilst trying to rescue people trapped in houses.

Stig - I'm not sure about the data plate, I had assumed it was accurate though no doubt someone will be able to confirm this one way or another.
Gerry

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Incidently,
The instructor at Hatfield, Captain Weighill was killed later in the war when he flew a bomber into the ground returning from ops.
Gerry

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Morris' flying experience was quoted at the inquest at exactly 101 hours 40 minutes solo flying by Weighill, and I now see a further 43 hours 10 minutes under initial flying training instruction. Weighill said Morris was a quote "fully qualified pilot".

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

This is interesting.
I have copies from the newspapers at the time and also RAF publications but no copy of the inquest. 101 hours solo is certainly not a novice!
Do you still have access to the inquest report?
I would be interested to see if there is any mention of other flights from Hatfield that day.
Thanks in advance for any assistance you can offer.
Gerry

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Stig

I think I am right in saying that some relics of the crash are held in Edmonton, possibly the local Central Library archivist would know whether the plate depicted came from the aircraft.

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

GED Burke I have not got the full inquest, just a copy of The Times article of the 8 September 1938.

I imagine the full inquest would be available in the Public Records at Kew or elsewhere.

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Pagem

I am not questioning if the plate is coming from the correct aircraft or not.
What I am wondering is if Hawker at the time had a single general c/n plate for the complete aircraft or if this is a part identification plate.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

Stig

I am not an expert on aircraft, so cannot help you with your query.

Pagem

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

According to a thread on the Great War Forum, there is a Memorial tablet in Edmonton Cemetery carrying details of this incident.

Re: Pre war Hawker Hart crash in Edmonton north London
 

15 years since I last posted on the Edmonton air crash.
I see I did not mention my memory was that Morris’s Audax was performing aerobatic loops in quick succession. The engine then cut out after some stuttering and the Audax fell away. My parents and I heard the engine briefly start again, followed by the sound of the crash. Was it possible that the series of loops led to the fuel not reaching the carburettor?