Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Hello,

While updating my blog lwcollectibles.blogspot.com I came across an interesting photo of a Me 109 canopy with a slot at the top. Was this standard or a field modification? Perhaps for Me 109 in the mediterranean? Does any Me 109 expert know more about this?

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: Me 109 canpoy with slot at the top?!
 

Hi,

I don't think that it is a slot! It looks to me more like a 'glued on' piece, fixed in a similar fashion to the perspex 'knobs' on cockpit glazing sliding panels.

There is possibly a tonal difference to back this up. Look at the frame that runs along the bottom of the canopy on it's port (left) side. Where it is definitely not obscured by perspex it is more toward black, through the perspex it is more grey. Through the 'slot' it is more to the grey.

Then I looked at two of my books and saw the same 'slot' and it does look more like a bar. P.35 Bf109 James F Craig 1968, P.92 Bf109 PSL/Airfix 1972 - don't laugh, I'm not into 109s!

Kind regards,

David

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Hi David,

Thank you for your response. You are probably right! If it is a glued piece it must be on the indside (on the outside it would only add drag without an obvious purpose). Could it be that the forward half of the top canopy could be slided backwards? I have never heard of this before, but that's the only explanation I can imagine.

Best regards
Roger

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

might be some sort of vent to stop steamin up at higher alt.
Gary

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Interesting i have never seen anything like this before.
I am sure its not stuck on and is infact a cut out slot, if you look closely you can see through the cut out at the leads and detail etc.. in the cockpit.
If it was, as has been suggested glued on the inside the view would not be clear, if able to see through it at all.

The only thing it can be is a vent of somekind but why?

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Hi,

I've just had word from one of my contacts and he recalls that on one type of 109 canopy there was a pull back section on the top that had a perspex strip bonded to it. (I've not been able to send a picture to him, he doesn't own a PC and at 92 years he reckons that he's too old to get involved with one now!)

As regards visibility it was fairly common to have handles etc 'glued' to sliding perspex panels on cockpit/canopy sides, such as found on He111, Bf109, Do17,Ju87 etc. On a light aircraft I flew several years ago the door windows had sliding panels with perspex pull bars and must say that I can't recall any major problems with visibilty or image distortion.

All that said, if it does turn out to be a slot, I'lllet my contact know and I'll stick to He111s!!! There must be a 109 afficionado out there who can enlighten us all one way or the other!

Kind regards,

David

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

A quick glance at some references show the slot/bar in a variety of E-7, F-2 and F-4 models. Appears to have disappeared with the G-model and the pressurised cabin.

Don

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

109D night fighters had a section in the top of the canopy that could be slid back. Sliding back the section would give the pilot a clear view of the sky above and in front of him. So, maybe, although it's hard to tell.

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

I can't make my mind up one way or another. I've searched through all the resources I have and it appears that the slot or glued handle appears more often than not on canopy's belonging to F-series Bf109's, especially those with the auxiliary bullet resistant 57mm windscreen. The image below shows a Bf109F-4 with both and is reproduced from German Aircraft Interiors 1935-45 [Monogram, 1996]

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Perhaps the answer can be found in period F-series pilot or parts manuals.

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Seems to be a "less well documented" part of the Bf 109. However, when studying photos of F-2 and F-4 versions I get the impression that the horizontal top roof part is divided into two parts, enabling the front part to slide under the aft and fixed perspex part. On some photos it is visible that the front part is located slightly lower that the aft part, enabling it to slide under.....
The "slot" is more likely a piece glued to the moving front perspex part enabling better grip when sliding it.

A photo of Wick in an E-4 cockpit on page 117 in "Major Helmut Wick" by Herbert Ringstetter, Motorbuch Verlag, in my opinion shows such a transparent "handle" pointing downwards, perpendicular to the top horizontal front perspex part - Visible as a "white" part contrasting against the darker metal frame.

Goran

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

How thick was the top glazing of the 109 canopy?

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

The "Ersatzteil-Liste Bf 109 F" from April 1941 show on page 32 the follow.

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Thanks Falcon! This confirms that the canopy had three sliding plexiglas panels: One on top and one each on the left and right hand side. This is consistent with the pictures I have compared with.
I get the impression that this feature can be found starting with the type of canopy introduced with the E-4 and then running with the F-series.

I have seen one picture where the top panel seems to have been opened, judging from the position of the "handle" piece.

Pressurized canopies do not seem to have this function which is quite understandable.

Later on the G-versions seem to have a fixed top panel instead of the sliding one???

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Hi,
Hopefully to knock this one on the head, spoke to my contact again highlighting this thread - he stated categorically that it was definitely NOT a slot and that it was a perspex (plexiglas) bar for moving the top panel back and forth. He recalls a thickness of up to 5mm and that it was not bullet proof. I hadn't quite appreciated how emphatic he was intending to be first time I spoke to him on the subject, my hearing will be back to normal soon!

I agree with SP that any form of slot wouldn't be a good idea as regards water getting in!

So, has anyone got any decent pics, maybe even from a restored or relic aircraft?

Regards,

David

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Square-topped Emils and Friedrichs had this "handle" on that central forward panel, as mentioned, and it's visible in all of these F model photos:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...109/f4_sw2.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9..._sw12_jg53.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...1_molders1.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...109/f2_br3.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...swwinkel-3.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l9...-notearmor.jpg

Lynn

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Molders' a/c and the last two pictured make it pretty clear that there is a separate clear panel in the front half of the canopy top section. It opens by pulling back the perpex ridge at the front. Now, why would they want it?

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Hi,

Thanks for the pics Lynn!

George, could the panel just be for cooling /ventilation as with the side windows, firing flares out of etc? The 109 having a side flipover canopy maybe wasn't as easy to ventilate as, say, the Fw190 where it's canopy could be rolled back almost any chosen distance up to it's stops. The operation manual/handbook for the aircraft may possibly indicate it's use.

Regards,

David

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Hard to say? But would it be possible for the pilot to squeeze out through the top panel if slid back in an emergency? say if the canopy was damaged in combat and would not open?
Kevin

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Boy, we're having a run with this one! In my opinion, David nailed it - it's for ventilation. Think of the greenhouse effect and imagine sitting in that small cockpit, suited with flying kit, on a hot/sunny day and add engine heat! To gain some air circulation and temperature relief, just slide the upper panel open; adjust it as desired with altitude and airspeed. The upper panel could also allow fumes/smoke to escape in an fire emergency. (A possible disadvantage is that the fire may then also “breath” and intensify.) Later models of the 109 with better closed-canopy ventilation, pressurization, or improved blown canopies eliminated the upper sliding panel. Any possibility a like panel was fitted to early Bf 110s (hinged canopy)? As noted, a/c with a progressive sliding canopy (e.g., Fw 190) would not need such a feature.

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Im sure it was for ventilation. See the difference to the G-series.

E/F-series:
- light plexi glass canopy
- sliding panels (top, left, right)
- the side triangle windows on the "Windschutzaufbau" can be open

G-series (unpressured):
- heavy glass canopy for more protection
- only left and right sliding panels
- fixed glass on the "Windschutzaufbau" side windows
Additional for better ventilation to get the E/F-series fresh air conditions:
- the vent openings left and right on the fuselage in the cockpit
- the small airscoops below the "Windschutzaufbau"

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

This is going out on a limb, but what about gun gas venting? The F was the first model with a centerline cannon, and the F-1 carried the drum-fed MG-FF/M in a zippered canvas sack between the pilot's legs. I'd imagine things got a bit hazy in the cockpit after several rounds! The F-2 went to the MG151/15, and you'll note it was in a sealed metal enclosure from that model onwards. And don't forget the port windscreen quarterlight could be opened from inside, giving cross-ventilation... it's just a guess, mind you, but it seems logical.

Lynn

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

How much venting do you need?, the side slides open.... there must be a practicle reason for the top slider? Pilot exit in emergency???
K

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

If motivated by do or die, there's the possibility of attempted pilot egress through the open top panel, but even a small man would have to be a contortionist to wiggle through that hole, not to mention while wearing flight gear and rattled. Seems like a poorly executed escape route (if that was its purpose); it definitely wasn't for all sizes. Didn’t this canopy have an emergency jettison feature?

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

To see the panel slid open have a look at Prien/Rodeike "Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G, & K Series", Page 18.
Maybe someone can provide a nice scan.

NoNo

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Why would a slot be cut or even a plexiglass piece added, when there was a small tit/button for opening the side windows?

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

Here is the picture requested by NoNo of the panel slid open. It is from page 18 of "Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series" by Jochen Prien & Peter Rodeike.

-Eric Zemper

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

There are several more photos of some F-1s, F-2s and F-4s (see pg 24) with the subject in question in the P&R book. On pg30, in the photo with Fw. Loddie, it looks like it was an added plexiglas piece.

Did the sliding glazing go under or over the rear piece of glazing?

Re: Me 109 canopy with slot at the top?!
 

It would appear that the front panel would slide over the rear panel.

Having seen the canopy of the 109 at our local museum, I think it highly unlikely that anyone would ever be able to exit the a/c through roughly half of the top panel.

Below is a crappy scan of a 109D-1 of 10.(N)/JG 26 taken in Stade in the fall of 1939, from Prien et al's, "Die Jagdfliegerverbande ..." Volume 2, page 224. It clearly shows the sliding panel in the top of the canopy, slightly open. This was apparently built into the night fighter version of that a/c to make it easier to see forward and upward when searching for British bombers at night. RAF tail gunners did the same with the rear panel of their turrets, to give them a slightly better view outside in searching for German night fighters.