JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Hi, can anybody help provide the loss details of JU88A-1 W.Nr 7160,
which failed to return from a bomb raid on London 18.10.40.
Looking for the crew names in particular, i have one name Sonntag if anybody can help?

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Hi Steve;

7060 actually as 7160 is known crashed on 19.10.40

9K+EC (F Oblt. Helmut von Claer, B Lt. Sigfried Sonntag and BF Ofw. Anton Stiegmüller mis/rep killed in a/23.10.40, BS Fw. Heinrich Märte mis/rep inj in a/23.10.40)

cheers
ed

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Thanks Ed for your quick reply!
So W.Nr 7060 then, and was this crew from StabII/KG51.

Regs,
Steve.

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

hi;

Ju 88 A-1 9K+EC II/KG 51 (Luftflotte 3)
OPS (F) missing (100%) unk location (London) 18.10.1940

code appears Stab.II/51 but only ´II/KG 51´ listed,

cheers
ed

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Good morning Ed and Peter,
thanks for your further information reg this crew.
I think Sonntag definately belonged to III/KG51 has he was involved in a previous accident on the 9.8.40, when his a/c crashed on takeoff from Mondesir, in 9K+DD W.Nr 5064 causing 50% damage to the a/c.
The three other crew members are attributed to the 4/KG51 in both Dierich's tome on the KG51, and Masons BoB book!

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

The unit was Stab II./KG51. The NVM states 'Aufklarungsschwarm II./KG51' and all three IDs apart from that of SONNTAG are for Stab II./KG51 not 4 Staffel.

Incidentally, I can find no mention in my edition of Dierich and the loss is correctly given as II./KG51 by Mason.

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Peter my source was from the German edition of Dierich's book KG51
pg 267 and in the revised copy of Francis K Mason's Battle over Britain Pages 468-469. Both sets of crew listings clearly state 4/KG51.

I dont doubt what you say but just want to clarify, the information i have here in front of me. It would appear then that both these two sources have been recorded incorrectley.

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Hi, all

The loss as recorded by GenQu6Abt is:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=116011

Now, Peter, if you have access to the NVM, it should be fairly easy to check the Erkennungsmarken for the crew. Also, often there is an entry for either the previous unit posting or the peace-time unit posting.

And that a crew was put together from members taken from other Staffeln of a Gruppe is not that curious.. happened all the time, and the Stab flight frequently 'borrowed' other crews to fill it up, not all Stab units could muster a full Stab flight at any given time. In fact I would be rather puzzled if all the members of the crews in the Stab flight belonged to the Stab of the Gruppe.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Steve,

If the sources you quote give the unit as 4./KG51 then, yes, they are both wrong I'm afraid.

ID details from the NVM are as follows: (Beo) Oberlt Hellmuth von CLAER B 65118 -4-, (Ff) Lt Siefried SONNTAG B 65110 -68-, (Bf) Oberfw Anton STEGMULLER B 65118 -7-, (Bm) Fw Heinrich MARTE B 65118 -33-. 65110 being the ID of Stab III./KG51 and 65118 that for Stab II./KG51. No further clues as to any previous postings.

Andreas,

Yes, I am aware that Stabsschwarm crews were often 'scratch' though it seems this was apparently fairly common practice across the whole of II./KG51 during this period, and possibly due to losses.

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Hi,

thanks for the information, my loss record updated accordingly.

Andreas B

Re: JU88A Loss 18.10.40 KG51
 

Hiya Peter and Andreas,
Thank you for the confirmation of Sonntags crew and Erkennungsmarken details. It would appear to be the case with II/KG51 using " scratch " crews, i see from another loss dated 11/12.1.41 that a StabII/KG51 a/c was being flown by a pilot from 6/KG51 this being 9K+DC W.Nr 6020, flown by Fw Hans-Georg Bluscher. Again the source is Dierich's German KG51 edition, although again the credibility of this book is open to debate!

Best regs,
Steve.