Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

Dear Fellow Researchers,

It seems like a non sequitur, gun cameras on nightfighters. However, as some of you know, I've been trying to identify the equipment suspended from the canopy on the Me 262B-1a/U1 interim nightfighter. The equipment appears to be made up of three separate apparatuses. The rear one appears to be a Pielschreiber 120a, but the other two, up to now, seem to be shrouded in mystery.

A couple of days ago, a fellow named Dennis Lucas approached me trying to identify a Siemens motion picture camera he had in his possession. It was certainly not a BSK 16, but more box shaped, like the old Brownie box camera. Comparing it to the coarse photos I have of the forward apparatus in the B-1a/U1, there is an uncanny similarity. As viewed from the front, the B-1a/U1 apparatus has a bright spot on it, which always made me think it was likely a lense. Now comes along this new evidence and I'm really trying to connect the dots.

The camera is remotely electrically controlled, if not driven, and is clearly intended to be mounted. An electrical cover bears the number Fl 32624. Unfortunately, the camera nameplate has been removed, so I don't know the model.

The question is: Does anyone know of cameras/gun cameras being tried on nightfighters, even if just on an experimental basis?

Regards,
Richard

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

They were certainly used on Mosquito nightfighters, if that's any help.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

Dear Mark,

That's a bit of encouragement. Do you know how they were used, considering the lack of light issue?

Regards,
Richard

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

The Me 262 was planned to carry a BSK 16 camera in the fuselage extreme nose. So, it would probably would not be in the rear cockpit hood unless it was placed there to photograph something else.

Regarding your friend's camera: In fact, the BSK 16 did look a great deal like an old Brownie movie camera. But, for gun camera work it would have a sighting image projector screwed onto the front of the camera in front of the camera lens.

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

Hi Richard:

The Mosquito combat reports I've seen generally say "cine camera automatically exposed", or something similar, and occasionally refer to the pilot also having filmed burning wreckage on the ground to support the claim. The pilot accounts do sometimes mention however that nothing useful was recorded.

Here's one example I've seen, which from memory records the destruction of an Me 110 nightfighter (colourised, scanned, out of focus, but you'll get the idea):

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P...2.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

I'm sure I've seen pics of 110G snouts which clearly show the camera opening.

I don't know if special film was used or not - I would assume that demonstrating the flashes from cannon strikes and the light from burning targets would have sufficed.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

Dear George & Mark,

The camera is more squat than a BSK 16. The installation I'm talking about would have been in the canopy area of the Me 262B-1a/U1 interim nightfighter. As the nose of this aircraft was taken up with radar equipment, the canopy area would have made sense for an alternative place for a gun camera. Even if there had been room to fit the camera in the nose, the film likely would have been fried by the radar.

Mark, thanks for the example. It does help.

Guys, I know this is a bit of a stretch, but something was mounted suspended within the canopy and this camera looks like a fairly decent match. Obviously, this was very late in the war and they could have been trying about anything.

Dennis said it came from a jet. The only other candidate I think would be an Ar 234. What sort of camera equipment, other than for recon., did it carry?

Regards,
Richard

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

Dear Richard,


Here is a web site for someone who deals in vintage cameras, both still and motion picture. He may be able to help or suggest a catalog or reference book. His e-mail is near the top of the page. http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/cinelisc.html#S


If you scroll down the alphabetical listing to Siemens & Halske AG, you'll see a few items in blue, which you can click on to see the actual camera.



Regards,
Ed

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

Well,

I'm going to pass into the realms of the speculative now, but is there any chance it is:

- Infrared? (I "think I saw somewhere" that some Luftwaffe nightfighters did have such equipment)
- Night glasses? (fixed to enable a steady look at whatever's ahead, without taking hands off the controls?)
- Some kind of IFF interrogator? (Again, I've read that one item in the box of tricks in Mossie nightfighters was an apparatus to trigger some kind of light, perhaps ultraviolet, hence the need for a special lens, in the tail of friendly bombers).

I'm really out of my dept with all of that, just hoping to stimulate debate.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

If you take a look at the location of the items in the hood of the interim night fighter, in Vol 3 of "Me 262" by Richard Smith and Eddie Creek, you will see that the field of view of a camera in that location to the front would be very poor (drawing, pg. 476, 488). You will also note the glass cover for the camera in the nose of V056 on pages 491-496. And, pgs. 470-472 show that the plumbing for the FuG 218 radar used by the Me 262, did not use the nose cone unit in which the camera would have been installed.


Mark,
The Brits had IFF interrogation, but the Germans did not. The Germans were testing infra-red gear, but I don't think it was operational.

Oh yes, from the Martini interrogations, the following was the equipment in the Me 262 night fighter as part of the Emergency Program: FuG 16ZY (to be replaced by FuG 24 in August 45), FuG 125, FuG 120k, FuG 25a, FuG 101a, FuG 350, and the rest either new requirements or future equipment: FuG 29, and FuG 218 (to be replaced by FuG 245). This report was prepared in Mar 45, and was already slightly out-of-date at war's end as the FuG 218 was being installed in night fighters before war's end.

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

Thanks George:

As I say, purely speculative. Pretty sure I saw a photo of an infra-red apparatus in (of all things) a French book on the NJ which I bought off a bookseller next to the Pont-Neuve when last I was in Paris. (May God have mercy on me, I took my wife to Chanel headquarters, and may God have mercy on her, she didn't buy anything...)

I owe you a snail mail...

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

In reply to a few things mentioned here:

The Germans did use a device called "Spanner-Anlage" (or Spanner I) on the Do-17Z-10 (and made by AEG). It consisted of an infrared searchlight mounted in the nose and a viewer in the pilot's wind screen. It was reported that it could see aircraft exhausts but was not very successful, being replaced by radar sets. I have personally seen at least one photo of an aircraft so equipped. It was also tried on experimental Bf-110 D-1/U1.

Then there is the FuG 280 "Kiel" passive IR vision detector made by Zeiss. It had a range of 4000 m and weighed 42 kg.

The company Lorenz built the FuG 226 "Neuling" IFF. Reportedly, British Mosquitoes carried a device called "Perfectos" that could track German IFF.



HTH,
Ed

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

You raise some good points, Ed. The following comments are all from the interrogations of General Martini and his staff at war's end:

1. The FuG 226, Neuling, was to have been available for installation in operational aircraft by Dec '44, but owing to difficulties encountered during the trials carried out at Rechlin it was not ready by the time of the capitulation. Lorenz was responsible for its production and Dr. Kramar of that firm was considered the expert on its technical aspects.

2. As early as 1940, experiments had been made with infra-red homing on to a/c exhausts using an infra-red telescope of the Bildwandler type called Spanner. This met with only limited success on account of restricted range and the dependency of infra-red on clear weather conditions. But the idea was never completely dropped.

With the introduction of night fighter commentary and the Verbandsflug tactics in 1944, it was required that night fighter units should fly in groups and keep as close together as possible.

It was, therefore, proposed to introduce an aid in the shape of some form of infra-red navigation lights to be viewed through an infra-red telescope. The latter, which was a form of Spanner, was named Falter. As, however, the field of view of this telescope was confined to about 15 degrees, it soon transpired during trials at Werneuchen that it was not a practical proposition.

In 1944 the idea of using infra-red for recognition, which had long lain dormant was once again evoked by the discovery that British bombers were carrying an infra-red recognition light. It was therefore proposed that German night fighters should home on to the infra-red lights by means of the Falter.

For mutual recognition between night fighters an infra red lamp termed "Gaensebrust" was also planned. It was hoped that Gaensebrust might not only allow recognition between German a/c but possibly afford some protection from British night fighters which might become uncertain in their recognition of a German night fighter if the Gaensebrust was flashed intermittently even thought the British code in use for the night were not known.

It was not known if it had been used operationally.

3. The Kiel Z was manufactured by Zeiss and known officially as the FuG 280. Infra-red radiations from the exhaust stubs of a/c were picked up in a parabolic mirror and focused on to an Elac lead sulphide cell. The field of view in a cone of +/- 10 degrees was scanned. A wider field of view could be obtained by moving the entire scanner by hand in the same manner as employed with the Berlin N1A.

Shortly before the end of the war a number of Kiel Z sets were tried out in operations but it was found that, although they gave a range of about 4 km on a 4-engined bomber, various difficulties arose. Infra-red radiations from the moon and stars formed "permanent echoes" on the cathod ray tube used as a viewing screen, and were not always easily distinguished from a moving a/c. In addition, if the target a/c was between the fires caused by the raid and the night fighter a/c, the target was obviously quite indistinguishable against the background of the fires.

Hope this helps.

Re: Nightfighters and gun cameras
 

Dear Mark, Ed, George, and anyone else interested,

Please e-mail me at egerrt@dmv.com and I will send you photos of the camera as well as the device in the Me 262B-1a/U1. Physically, they appear very close. Gordon Permann, with whom I have been dialoging by e-mail, doesn't believe the camera is infra-red, nor that it has a lens anywhere near what would be needed for night photography. Still, the physical resemblance of the two seems to be too close to ignore.

Regards,
Richard