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Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Alexandr Mardanoff (the russian historian) researched with great care almost all victories that had been claimed by Rudolf Mueller (and some other famous aces too). See "Aviamaster" ("Авиамастер"), 2006, № 1,2: "Четыре пишем - два в уме" and "Восемь пишем - два в уме" (can be translated more or less like "We say 'four', we have in mind two" and "We say 'eight', we have in mind two" :)).
I hope this information may be very useful. About so-called 'shared victories'. For example, three pilots of JG 5 shot down 3 enemy aircrafts and claimed 8 victories. In this case we can't surely say who exactly shot down the aircrafts and these actual victories we must call a 'shared victories'. 1 12.9.1941 - I-16 I-16 of 72 SAP, damaged (mladshiy leitenant Plotnikov) 2 17.9.1941 - DB-3 overclaim 3 17.9.1941 - I-153 overclaim 4 27.9.1941 - Hurricane overclaim 5 28.9.1941 - SB-2 SB-2 of 118 RAE 6 2.11.1941 - SB-2 SB-2 of 137 KSBP 7 2.11.1941 - SB-2 SB-2 of 137 KSBP 8 4.11.1941 - I-16 overclaim 9 1.2.1942 - Hudson overclaim 10 16.2.1942 - Hudson Hudson of 48 SQN (FTR) 11 23.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 20 GIAP 12 23.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 20 GIAP (shared victory) 13 23.4.1942 - SB-2 SB-2 of 137 KSBP 14 23.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 768 IAP (serzhant Kolentsov, killed) 15 23.4.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 16 24.4.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 17 26.4.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 18 26.4.1942 - Pe-2 Pe-3 of 95 IAP ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 5 Pe-3 (twin-engine fighters) - 5 Pe-2 claimed by Mueller, Carganico, Pfranger, Tetzner and Dahn. Additionally Mueller, Carganico and Pfrenger claimed 3 Hurricanes - very strange because Pe-3s operated without any cover. ----------------------------------------------- 19 28.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GKAP (leitenant Godelevich, killed) 20 28.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GKAP (shared victory) 21 28.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GKAP (shared victory) 22 28.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GKAP (shared victory) ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 4 Hurricanes lost (starshiy leitenant Obuvalov, serzhant Ivanov, serzhant Leshchenko, leitenant Godelevich), 2 Hurricanes damaged. Mueller, Pfranger, Carganico, Tetzner, Schumacher claimed 12 victories (all Hurricanes). ----------------------------------------------- 23 29.4.1942 - I-153 I-153 of 27 IAP (shared victory) 24 29.4.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 78 IAP, damaged (starshiy leitenant Nikolaev, wounded) 25 29.4.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 26 18.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 197 IAP (shared victory) 27 18.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 197 IAP (shared victory) 28 18.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 1 P-40, 2 Hurricanes lost (starshiy politruk Seleznyov, starshiy leitenant Yarkin, starshiy leitenant Levchuk). Mueller, Schumacher, Scholz, Doebrich, Stratmann, Klante, and Kirchmayr claimed 11 victories (10 Hurricanes and 1 P-40). ----------------------------------------------- 29 19.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 30 19.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 31 19.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 32 25.5.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 33 26.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of VVS 14 Army 34 26.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of VVS 14 Army 35 26.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of VVS 14 Army 36 28.5.1942 - Hurricane P-39 of 19 GIAP (kapitan Kutachov) (shared victory) 37 28.5.1942 - P-40 overclaim 38 30.5.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 2 GIAP, damaged 39 2.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 768 IAP or 2 GKAP (shared victory) 40 2.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 768 IAP or 2 GKAP (shared victory) 41 13.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 78 IAP (shared victory) 42 13.6.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 43 13.6.1942 - Hurricane overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 1 Hurricane lost (starshiy leitenant Shalayev, belly-landing). Mueller, Ehrler, Doebrich, Todt claimed 6 Hurricanes. ----------------------------------------------- 44 17.6.1942 - I-180 overclaim 45 17.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 769 GIAP (shared victory) 46 17.6.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 769 GIAP (shared victory) ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 3 Hurricanes lost (mladshiy leitenant Kotov, starshiy serzhant Bogush, serzhant Olin). The pilots of 5, 6, 8./JG 5 claimed 13 victories. ----------------------------------------------- 47 23.6.1942 - I-16 I-16 of 27 SAP (starshiy serzhant Mal'chenko, killed) 48 4.8.1942 - I-16 overclaim 49 4.8.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 50 4.8.1942 - Hurricane overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: no losses ----------------------------------------------- 51 13.8.1942 - I-153 I-15bis of 27 IAP, damaged (serzhant Laptev) 52 13.8.1942 - I-16 I-16 of 27 IAP (serzhant Lebedev, baled out) 53 13.8.1942 - MiG-3 overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 1 I-16 lost, 1 I-15bis damaged. Mueller, Ehrler, Bartels, Kaiser, Dylewski and other pilots claimed 15 (!!!) victories. ----------------------------------------------- 54 21.8.1942 - Yak-1 overclaim 55 21.8.1942 - I-180 overclaim 56 21.8.1942 - Yak-1 overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 2 LaGG-3 lost (mladshiy leitenant Samarkov, mladshiy leitenant Bagrayev), 2 I-16 damaged. Mueller, Ehrler and other pilots claimed 14 victories. ----------------------------------------------- 57 22.8.1942 - Fighter overclaim 58 22.8.1942 - Fighter overclaim 59 22.8.1942 - Fighter overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: no losses ----------------------------------------------- 60 25.8.1942 - Yak-1 Yak-1 of 20 IAP (serzhant Sulimov, killed) (shared victory) 61 25.8.1942 - Yak-1 overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 1 Yak-1 lost. Mueller and other pilots claimed 5 victories (3 Yak-1, 1 MiG-3, 1 P-40). ----------------------------------------------- 62 29.8.1942 - E/a overclaim 63 29.8.1942 - E/a overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: no losses, no combats (!). So how the hell Mueller could claim his victories??? ----------------------------------------------- 64 2.9.1942 - Fighter Fighter of 27 IAP or VVS 14 Army (shared victory) ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 1 P-40, 1 I-16 lost (serzhant Silayev, serzhant Yemelyanov), 2 P-40, 1 I-16 damaged. Mueller, Doebrich, Stolz, Bartels, Kaiser, Herzog, Norz, Kunz and other pilots claimed 17 (!) victories. ----------------------------------------------- 65 4.9.1942 - E/a shared victory 66 8.9.1942 - Fighter Hurricane of VVS 14 Army (shared victory) 67 9.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory) 68 9.9.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 69 9.9.1942 - Hurricane overclaim 70 9.9.1942 - Hurricane overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 1 Hurricane, 1 P-39 (kapitan Kuligin - belly-landing, mladshiy leitenant Krivosheev - killed while ramming enemy fighter). Mueller, Ehrler, Doebrich, Scharff, Bock, Herzog, Bartels claimed 13 victories (11 Hurricanes, 1 P-40, 1 P-39). ----------------------------------------------- 71 15.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory) 72 15.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory) 73 15.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory) 74 15.9.1942 - Hurricane Hurricane of 837 IAP (shared victory) ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 5 Hurricanes lost. Mueller, Doebrich, Weissenberger and other pilots claimed 17 victories (12 Hurricanes, 5 P-40) ----------------------------------------------- 75 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory 76 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory 77 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory 78 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory 79 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory 80 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory 81 27.9.1942 - Fighter shared victory ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: 4 P-40, 2 Hurricanes, 2 LaGG-3, 1 Yak-1 lost. Mueller and other pilots claimed 20 victories. ----------------------------------------------- 82 8.2.1943 - E/a overclaim 83 8.2.1943 - E/a overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: no losses ----------------------------------------------- 84 17.2.1943 - Hurricane Hurricane of 966 IAP 85 II.1943 - E/a - 86 II.1943 - E/a - 87 21.2.1943 - P-39 Hurricane of 760 IAP 88 1943 - E/a - 89 1943 - E/a - 90 1943 - E/a - 91 1943 - E/a - 92 13.3.1943 - P-39 500th victory of 6./JG 5; overclaim ----------------------------------------------- Day losses: no losses. Mueller, Fahldick and Weissenberger claimed 4 victories (2 P-40, 2 P-39). ----------------------------------------------- In total: 17 actual 'kills' + 3 damaged + 29 'shared victories' + 37 overclaims |
Rudolf Müller
Hello Sanchez
Christer Bergström identifies the five victories claimed by Müller on 23 April 1942 as: Hurricane of 2 GSAP, VVS-SF flown by Szt Anatoliy Semyonov, killed Hurricane of 2 GSAP, VVS-SF flown by Szt NF Yepanov, baled out SB-2 of 137 SBAP, VVS flown by M/Lt Golovanov Hurricane of 20 GIAP, VVS flown by S/Lt IYa But Hurricane of 20 GIAP, VVS flown by Szt AI Chibisov I should add that JG 5 appears to have been rather notorious in regards to overclaiming as compared to the other Eastern Front Jagdgeschwadern. Horrido! Leo |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Thanks to both for the very interesting information. Can the disagreement as to the victims of 23 Apr 42 be viewed as suggestive of possible room for interpretation of Soviet losses on the other listed dates? I'm sure we'd all be interested in seeing Mardanoff's conclusions on the veracity of other aces claims.
Thanks, Rob Romero |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Hello Leo!
According to my sources (Mardanoff's article), serzhant Semyonov and serzhant Yepanov were shot down by Sponeck and Schumacher (they claimed 2 Hurricanes). Rudolf Mueller shot down Hurricane flown by serzhant Kolentsov and claimed 2 victories. Additionally on this day the German pilots shot down 3 Hurricanes, two of them were flown by starshiy leitenant But and serzhant Chibisov (both killed). After that combat Mueller claimed 2 Hurricanes and 1 SB (SB of 137 SBAP), Weissenberger and Maul claimed 2 Hurricanes (5 claims in total for 4 actual victories). Another Hurricane was lost on this bloody day when mladshiy leitenant Negulyayev (of 769 IAP PVO, KIA 23.4.1942) rammed enemy Bf109. This was, in fact, Bf109 flown by Florian Salwender (KIA 23.4.1942). Salwender was credited with 1 victory (Hurricane) postmortem. |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Hi.
Most interesting information, and we surely look forward to finally seeing some russian research on losses with actual original references. Could you pls post details like aircraft codes and serial numbers as well as original document sources for the actual losses, and also pls a complete list of the units available on the soviet side for each of these dates? Regards, Andreas B |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Leo
All I can add is that there was definately no Hurricane loss on the 27th September 1941. In fact the RAF claimed 2 Bf109's on this day - confirmed by the Russian Observor Corp which I now believe were possibly daamaged but not lost. http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...anes/index.htm As Andreas said, would be interesting to get more information on all of Muller's claims. I am also interested in Carganico's 50+ claims as well from mid 1941-end 1942. regards Mark |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Hi
I for one would be very interested to see the documents concerning the Bf 109's on 27.09.1941 as these would be additional losses that were never recorded by I./JG 77. And since they were observed by Soviet ground based observers, I am sure that they recorded this in detail and would like to see the corresponding documents detailing the information taken from the wreckage. Sure it wasn't a Hurricane they saw? LaGG? MiG? ;) I thought I should really spark this discussion by adding the following: As we know the German fighter pilots were almost flawless with regards to their claims, while the poles, americans and brits have been documented again and again to have been notorious with regards to filing falsified claims, I do believe we have to be very cautious when reading the claims list of pilots of said nationalities. But as I know from previous experience, certain members of the board does not seem to have a developed sense of humour or the ability to spot what is supposed to be ironic, I thought it would be best not to do it ;) What I however do believe is very important is that at least the people serious with regards to documenting the WWII airwar try to do this based on comparing the notes from both or rather ALL sides, as even the more famous of writers among us have made errors, simply because the necessary documents were unavailable to them. And even better, try not to be biased... even if it is hard! I do also believe we should stop using the word KILL entirely, and rather use the term CLAIM. There are thousands of reasons that it is hard to verify a claim - several of them connected to the fact that it is not always easy to find documentation at all - simply because this kind of information has always been sensitive and thus more or less kept secret by the armed forces. We discuss here single incidents with regards to how many soviet fighters were lost on a given day, when the russian researchers of today cannot even agree rounded to the closest million how many soviet citizens 'disappeared' under Stalin. I have been waiting for years for publications to appear stating the details with regards to soviet aircraft losses during WWII, as I have heard that they are supposedly well recorded and detailed. To date no such research (at least in english and to my knowledge) has appeared, with original sources stated, but I will continue to wait and I am really looking forward to cross reference the claims and losses when and if such publications finally appear. Regards, Andreas B |
Rudolf Müller
Hello Mark
Many thanks for the added information concerning Müller's claim that day. I also wish to thank you for pointing me to the link of your excellent article concerning the RAF squadrons' operations on the Polar Front. Very nice and a pleasure to read! I have to say that I too am hopeful that we can soon be finding out more about the Russian side of things in regards to the air war on the Eastern Front. Horrido! Leo |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Quote:
One of the conclusions that personally surprised me was that how different the claims and losses of all sides are. I even aired my opinion, in a footnote, that German pilots must have identified some of the Soviet fighters types as 'DB-3', or 'SB-2', as they almost regularily overclaimed as regards the Soviet fighters, but quite often they actually underclaimed as regards the VVS bombers. So, there is still lots and lots to research and publish on the air war on the Eastern Front... |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Andreas
Muller's claim for 27.09.41 could well have been a LaGG or somethnig similar. By 27th they knew the RAF were in Russia and would an RAF claim have more prestige than a Soviet victory? I will send you a list of the RAF claims v loses and highlight those confirmed by another RAF pilot and those highlighted by Soviet Observation Units. For example the Hs126 on 17 09 41 was confirmed destroyed by SOU but returned to the unit 30% damage. A Bf110 was given as a victory /los by SOU and given to the RAF unit as well (15 09 41 I think) but no RAF pilot reported a combat with a Bf110 let alone or claim! I will send the list. There is a definite a couple of missing Bf109's which would be interesting to find out more on. Will email you shortly. regards Mark |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Sanchez,
Do you have a copy of the article, if so could you post it on the discussion board or send it to me at my email address in the members list, I would like to read it. In particular, I’m interested in what source Alexandr Mardanoff used to determine Rudolf Muller’s Victory list and the timings of the various Soviet losses listed. The reason for my interest is that I have several concerns over the authors article, but firstly I‘ll apologize in advance if I've got any individual detail wrong from the sources I’m about to quote. I am purely an amateur at this and as I work away from home (where the books are kept) I’m relying on my notes in my laptop. My first concern is in respect to the accuracy of Muller’s claims list. To me it appears like Muller’s list in the article came from Kacha’s Luftwaffe Aces page on the internet which has stated the book Eismeerjager as one of it’s sources. In Kacha’s list and Eismeerjager, victories 82 & 83 are shown as “confirmed - date assumed” so if no losses are found on that date it’s not surprising as it could be the wrong date. Did the Author research combats around that date? Another source I reference is Prien’s JFV Series which has published Luftwaffe victories to the end of 1942. When compared with Eismeerjager there is a number of differences. For instance the following victories are stated by Mardanoff as “overclaim”, while JFV states the following. No. 2 17 Sep 41– JFV has a different date, 15 Sep 41 No 48 – 59 4 Aug 42 – JFV has a different date, 5 Aug 42 No. 57-59 22 Aug 42 – JFV date uncertain Aug 42 No. 62-63 29 Aug 42 – JFV date uncertain Aug 42 There are also a number of other discrepancies between the 2 sources such as the number of victories claimed on certain dates and victories claimed or not claimed on dates. This makes the actual victory number sequence between the 2 sources different in places. Who is right? Who is wrong? Eismeerjager or JFV ?? I would also like to highlight a few more points.
In the second case, my concern is the accuracy of Soviet losses. Without going into great detail in every situation I have many questions here as well, for example. 26 Apr 42 the author stated 5 Pe3’s lost for 5 Pe2’s claimed (very accurate!) and credited Muller with 1, however the author discounted 3 Hurricane (1 to Muller) saying the Pe3’s were unescorted. In JFV the Pe2’s are all claimed around 16.15hr while the 3 Hurricanes had no time of claim listed. Earlier in the day a further 7 hurricanes were claimed mostly around 10.00 hr including one to Ltn. Dahn who also claimed one of the Pe3’s. Could the 3 Hurricanes actually be from the earlier combat that losses are unknown? The author states that the 5 Pe3’s are the only losses for that day, so this would then makes 10 hurricanes for no Hurricanes lost. 28 Apr 42, A big day, at least 4 combats at 07.25 hr, 10.00hr, 11.30hr and 12.30hr for 13 claims (12 Hurricanes). All the Hurricanes lost are shown to come from 2GKAP. A big battle was fought at 11.30 for 8 hurricanes claimed, so could it be possible that the 4 lost and 2 damaged from the same unit occurred at this time? No times are given for the losses to confirm this. However to me this would seem reasonable for a typical case of over claim (8 claims for 4 lost +2 damage). Did the author identify these other combats and the subsequent results? I maybe premature in my comments/questions without reading the article but I would like to know how accurate the Soviet records are? Even if no losses occurred, can the individual combats and units involved be identified? As with Andreas I eagerly await to finding a source of Soviet losses to compare against. I look forward to getting a copy of the article. Regards, Craig…. |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Quote:
As regards to the "flawless" of German claims, that is absolute falsehood. There are lots of examples for number of pilots from German side being too optimistic, not to say more, about their claims. I do not know the exact reason of this trend. But in some cases I can presume that it was made deliberately. Now about publications, you can see the the example of well-researched two-sided info books, based on the ammount of Soviet archive materials. I mean recent works by Berstrom and his co-authors, "Graf-Grislawski" and the third part of BKRS. The major stake of material from Soviet side has its origin in the first-account TsAMO, TsVMA and RGVA records. Thanks to Vlad Antipov and Andrey Dikov and previously to Andrey Mikhailov, who handled lots of their records to Christer Berstrom. Due to this, Soviet side material in these books are of perfect quality. However, some of the sharp issues, including German overclaim for few pilots, are not highlighted even in this books. Good example of this is the 200th claim by Graf. Good description of combat was given, but no concrete conclusion that this claim was pure overclaim, without any proof from Soviet side... |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Hi, Nikita.
As I stated - this was a joke! An irony! I thoroughly respect the work of for example Bergström and Dikov et al - but the problem still in my opinion is that for the german losses we have the records for most the war (1939 - April 1945) readily available, at least to numbers of aircraft, unit and date, while the corresponding records from the opposite side with regards to soviet aviation especially is not available to others than a precious few. I am not doubting the fact that these individuals are doing a tremendous work, the problem is that the general research community is not able to access the original documents and thus not able to make an assesment to their completeness and eventual flaws. As I said in a previous remark - most of us are able to state or locate the Werknummer, code, location and date for a given German aircraft lost by a given unit, also often the pilot or crew is named, but have no tools readily available with regards to establishing a corresponding claim or loss respectively on the Soviet side. For example, when I state that the I./JG 77 does not seem to have reported any losses for the dates September 26th and 27th 1941, this is based on the Summary loss records of the unit and Generalquartiermeister 6 Abt loss records for the corresponding dates, of which I can state the archive reference in both cases, so anyone with an interest can in fact check if I have relayed the correct data. With regards to Soviet military aviation of the period I cannot see that this is the same situation, and please correct me if I am wrong! As you said, Bergström has relied on lists provided by Dikov and Antipov, but to what extent do we know that these are exhaustive? That they cover every unit? That there is no possibility that there are more information in documents not available? That the pilot claiming a fighter in fact misidentified a light bomber or observer/communications aircraft? As another example, a lot of authors that have provided loss information based on German records have obviously been working off one of the sets of documents that has no handwritten references to corrections, and thus has not been able to relay more than the original record if not working with a database or spreadsheet approach, or in a painstakingly slow and tedious manual process of handling this. In my work on the database for German losses provided on my website, my teams strategy was always to work backwards from the latest towards the earliest dates in the documents, and we included the corrections as an integral part of the system, specifically to avoid making the same errors. For some of the losses there are three or four corrections and amendments made, in addition to information from other, often western allied or local sources. If you can relay archive numbers and also the procedure on how to order copies of such documents from former Soviet archives, I would be very thankful, as this undoubtedly would enhance the accuracy and value of upcoming publications. I sincerely hope that we in the future will see even more information coming from the archives of the former Soviet Union, and look forward to working with you all on this very interesting topic. As a small side comment, the database system can handle all theaters and information from all combatants, so if anyone is interested in entering data from Soviet or western allied side (in addition to the former German allies like Italy, Rumania etc) please feel free to contact me off board to establish a project on this. Regards, Andreas B |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Dear Andreas,
As I stated - this was a joke! An irony! Sorry, If had misunderstood you. As I said in a previous remark - most of us are able to state or locate the Werknummer, code, location and date for a given German aircraft lost by a given unit, also often the pilot or crew is named, but have no tools readily available with regards to establishing a corresponding claim or loss respectively on the Soviet side This is not our fault, but the common procedure in our archives that make foreigners work in some cases impossible. However, I heard somebody of the boardmembers succeded in working there. For example, when I state that the I./JG 77 does not seem to have reported any losses for the dates September 26th and 27th 1941, this is based on the Summary loss records of the unit and Generalquartiermeister 6 Abt loss records for the corresponding dates, of which I can state the archive reference in both cases, so anyone with an interest can in fact check if I have relayed the correct data. With regards to Soviet military aviation of the period I cannot see that this is the same situation, and please correct me if I am wrong! Could you please remind me on this case with I/JG77? As you said, Bergström has relied on lists provided by Dikov and Antipov, but to what extent do we know that these are exhaustive? That they cover every unit? That there is no possibility that there are more information in documents not available? That the pilot claiming a fighter in fact misidentified a light bomber or observer/communications aircraft? I see. In this case someone can also question GQ lists as incomplete. Let me shed some light on this issue. Documents in TsAMO, are devided into funds that belong to different command levels. If we have purpose to check .e.g. documents of 5 GIAP, we refer to the regimental fund itself, afterwards we double-check this with documents of more higher level, divisions and IAKs or other it was subordinated to. And then goes the highest level - documents of VA, which summerise units reports. In case of Graf 200th victory, I personally checked the sources and every document available. Case of misidentification is dropped, because combat reports from both sides coincide, exept the major thing: no plane was shot down. And I can advise lots of such examples. As another example, a lot of authors that have provided loss information based on German records have obviously been working off one of the sets of documents that has no handwritten references to corrections, and thus has not been able to relay more than the original record if not working with a database or spreadsheet approach, or in a painstakingly slow and tedious manual process of handling this. In my work on the database for German losses provided on my website, my teams strategy was always to work backwards from the latest towards the earliest dates in the documents, and we included the corrections as an integral part of the system, specifically to avoid making the same errors. For some of the losses there are three or four corrections and amendments made, in addition to information from other, often western allied or local sources. Same situation with Soviet records, we also include in our databases numerous amendments and corrections and other things, includind dates errors. The problem is that Soviet documents do not have anything similar to GQ list with summerized losses. Everything is to be extracted from units documents. If you can relay archive numbers and also the procedure on how to order copies of such documents from former Soviet archives, I would be very thankful, as this undoubtedly would enhance the accuracy and value of upcoming publications. I can advise archive references but it depends on what you are interested in. As regards order copies, I'am afraid that needs personal presence in Podolsk or Gatschina. I sincerely hope that we in the future will see even more information coming from the archives of the former Soviet Union, and look forward to working with you all on this very interesting topic. There are lots of publications in Russia. why they are not translated and published in Europe or USA. That is the question. I should say that database with all Soviet fighter pilots claims during 1941-45 is already exists (VVS and PVO pilots). It consits of more than 45000 entries, based only on the first-hand unit accounts. And the majority of loss cases are also summerized from the archive sites. As a small side comment, the database system can handle all theaters and information from all combatants, so if anyone is interested in entering data from Soviet or western allied side (in addition to the former German allies like Italy, Rumania etc) please feel free to contact me off board to establish a project on this. Before, going to private board with this issues, I would like to ask how one can use you database? Best regards. |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Andreas
I will post the 151 Wing RAF/Luftwaffe claims/loses later, but the archives are there - just very difficult to get access to. I have to rely on a few good research friends and luckily I am only asking for information about a single aircraft each time! Have a read of these. http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...5252/index.htm Soviet loss and report .Loss and claims seem to add up. http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis...very/index.htm Soviet loss and report .Loss and claims seem to add up. http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/englis.../p39/index.htm Soviet loss and report. 1941 is the worst period, similar to 1940 with the RAF. Things were so chaotic that there are large gaps. 1942 onwards - the records seem to be very detailed. I want to look further inot the Sept/Oct 1941 claims loses to see if anything has been missed. regards Mark |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Quote:
I think there is no need to find an aircraft of the opponent actually shot down, in order to confirm an air victory. An aircraft damaged in combat, which either force landed, or even returned to the base in damaged state would suffice. While researching the often difficult events of 1941, which involved participants of several air forces, I came across many times of aircraft of a certain party being damaged in air combat (which didn't crash) and a matching 'kill' claim of the other party. I would consider those victory claims as confirmed, even though no 100% loss occurred from the other side. This means that the pilot did not 'invent' his 'kill', but the eventual fate of his victim was not fully observed (quite understandable in the heat of the battle). [Note: this remark is generally valid, for all sides, and it's not specifically referring to the 200th victory claim of Graf.] |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Quote:
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Rudolf Müller
Hello Craig
Very interesting post. I have noted these differences as well. As Craig points out there is a number of minor differences as well such as victory number sequence. Eismeerjäger includes the following victories not listed by Prien: 1.2.1942 Hudson 21.8.1942 I-180 27.9.1942 E/a Prien includes the following victories not listed by Eismeerjäger: 24.3.1942 18:15 Hurricane PQ 3078 18.5.1942 Hurricane I hope that you guys find this interesting. Like Craig I wonder what are the sources for Müller's victory list. Horrido! Leo |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Mark, lot of thanks for the links!
I have checked the site time to time but had missed the P-39 page, which was especially interesting to me because the plane had belonged to 773 IAP. Thankfully Juha |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Sanchez, thanks a lot for your messages!
Very intresting! And thanks to other participans also, very interesting and informative discussion! Juha |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Mark,
Thanks, for your summation on the Soviet loss records that you’ve encountered in your research. It was as I suspected, I doubt any record system is 100% correct 100% of the time. You stated that the records get very accurate in 1942, in your opinion when do you believe they became very accurate, early mid or late 1942? I’m just working out for myself to what degree of confidence the reported information is correct. I look forward to seeing your post the 151 Wing RAF/Luftwaffe claims summary. Regards, Craig... |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Craig
Here is the information. Kills to 151 Wing in Russia. 81 Squadron. 12th Sept Z5122 P/O 'Bas' Bush. Bf110 Damaged. 12th Sept Z4018 Sgt Haw Bf109E Destroyed. Z5157 P/O Walker Bf109E Destroyed. Z4006 Sgt Waud. Bf109E Destroyed.* Z4006 Sgt Waud. He126 Probable* Sgt Smith was damaged/could not open cockpit and crashlanded and was killed. 17th Sept Z5208 Sgt Haw. Bf109E Destroyed. Z4017 P/O Bush Bf109E Destroyed* Z5207 Sgt Anson 1/3 Z5228 Sgt Sims. 1/3 Bf109E Destroyed.* BD792 S/Ldr Rook. 1/3 26th Sept Z5227 P/O Edmiston. Bf109F Probable BD818 P/O Holmes Bf109F? Destroyed Z4006 Sgt Reed Bf109F? Destroyed. F is more likely an E with a pointed spinner? 27th Sept Z5227 P/O Edmiston. Bf109F? Destroyed. Z4018 Sgt Haw. Bf109F? Destroyed. 6th October. Z5207 F/Lt Rook. Bf109F Destroyed. BD792 S/Ldr A H Rook/Furneaque Ju88 Destroyed* BD792 S/Ldr Rook/P/O Ramsay Ju88 Probable Z5157 P/O D Ramsay/134 a/c Ju88 Probable Z5228 F/O McGregor Ju88 Probable Z5209 P/O Walker Ju88 Probable BD822 Sgt Bishop Ju88 Damaged. Z4006 Sgt Crewe Ju88 Damaged 134 Squadron. 6th October Z3978 P/O Cameron Ju88 Probable Z3978 P/O Cameron Ju88 Damaged Z5134 Sgt Gould Ju88 Damaged Z5236 F/O Elkington/Barnes Ju88 Destroyed * * Confirmed in Luftwaffe loses. _____ Confirmed as hitting the ground by independent RAF pilots, not Russians Observation Corp Absturz- Hurricanes151 Wing v Bf109E’s I/JG77. 12th September 1941 One Bf110 damaged.(Diary report) 1.(Z)/JG77 Bf110 Jagerbeschuss Oblt F/ Lt M Three Bf109E’s and one Hs126 were claimed as shot down. German Luftwaffe records indicate the following: (1) 1./JG77 Bf109E-7 W.Nr1075 ‘Gelb 6’ by Liza-Bucht, Luftkampf, 100% Ltn Eckerdt v. d. Lühe gefallen. (2) 1./JG77 Bf109E-7 W.Nr4078 by Nicht Gemeldet,. Notlandung infolge Motorstorung. 100%. (3)1./(H)32 Hs126 W.Nr3461 by location Lizabucht. Reason Jagerbeschuss Air Combat 30%. 17th September 1941 Three Bf109E’s were claimed as shot down. German Luftwaffe records indicate the following: (1) 14./JG77 Bf109E-3 W.Nr4004 ‘Rot 6’ by Zapad Liza. Jagerbeschuss 100%. Fw Joseph Stiglmair Vermißt. (2) 14./JG77 Bf109E-7 W.Nr6124 by Bereslawi, Jagerbeschuss-20% (recorded as 4./JG77). 26th September 1941 Two Bf109E-7’s were claimed as shot down and one probable. No German Luftwaffe records indicate any damage to Bf109’s on this day. 27th September 1941 Two Bf109F’s (E-7’s?) were claimed as shot down. No German Luftwaffe records indicate any damage to Bf109’s on this day. 6th October 1941 One Bf109E’s was claimed as shot down. (A flight of six of I/JG77 were escorting the Ju88’s) (German Luftwaffe records for the 6th October indicate the following - (1) 3./KG30 Ju88A5, W.Nr626, 4D+LL. Location Unbekannt-unknown, Unbekannt-unknown, 100%. Crew missing. (West of Veanga) (2) 3./KG30 Ju88A5, W.Nr4155 4D+KL. Location Unbekannt-unknown, Unbekannt-unknown, 100%. Crew missing. (West of Vaenga) (3) 2./KG30 Ju88 A5, W.Nr292 4D+?K. Location Fl. Pl Petsamo-. Brauchlandung nach Jagerbeschuss, 100%. Two Ju88's crashed behind front line in the tundra and a number of members of crew were capture. Aircraft were basically undamaged. Where are those aircraft now! If anyone can add anything more to this, then that would be very interesting. Shame there is no JG77/KG30 day log records adding more information. regards Mark |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Thanks Mark
besides the loss of Sgt Smith was there any other combat casualties by 151 Wing, including damaged aircraft? Regards, Craig... |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Craig
Couple force landed when they arrived having damaged there undercarriage taking off from HMS Argus. Lots of tipping over and breaking propellors. One flying accident. 134 Sqn take with two crewman on tailplane. They were killed and pilot seriously injured. Few bullet holes but nothing more. regards Mark |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
TO MARK:
It was fascinating to read out your articles on the discovery of the P-39, P-40 and Hurricane! I do have no words to thank you for sharing it with the readers and members of the Forum. I was astonished by the PROFESSIONALIST way you do write, the magnificent photographs and the incredible work of Archeology. Certainly a MUST! Please ADVISE me if you ever publish a book with this kind of article, ok? I would be very pleased to acquire one myself...and please, keep continuing this incredible work you have been doing. I do congratulate you and all the Russian Members of the TEAM. Yes, there should be MORE books in English available on the Market about WW2 Aviation ( their side of the History ). Tell them about that... Yours ( with a Huge respect and admiration for the valuable and incredible work ) Adriano |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Andriano
I have thought about this for a while having been involved in most of the recoveries from the Russian North (and elsewhere). Without the help of TOCH and some dedicated researchers - experts in there own fields it would not be anywhere near as complete and interesting! Kjetil Aakra profiles also bring the aircraft to life. I have thought about a book covering the recoveries/history and restoration where applicable of 25 plus recoveries. With each aircraft covering 5-7 pages, photos and profiles and all well researched, might be a nice little read. Its getting the time, busy work, house renovation, wife and two youngish children there is not a lot of extra time! From memory. Aircraft included -Russia Bf109 3579 Bf109 1407 Bf109 3523 Bf109F 8341 Bf109F 10132 Bf109 G-6 Swiblosee Bf110C 3523 Bf110E-2 4502 Bf110F-2 5052 Fw190 1227 Fw189 2100 Hurricane P3351/DR393 Hurricane Z5227 Hurricane Z5252 Hampden P1344 P40C 41-11390 Tomahawk IIB AK255/AK295 P40E 41-13570 P40K 42-10083 P40K 42-10256 Bell P39Q 44-1911 Yak 1 1342 MiG-3 No1 MiG-3 No2 Norway Fw190A3 Halifax NA337 Arado 96 Ju88 A1 Ju88 A5 He111 Germany Fw190D-9 (Schwerin) P47 42-29150 'Dottie Mae'. Thats around 30 I have been involved with, most published (articles) with profiles from Kjetil for most. What do you recon. Worth publishing? I also have 95% of the research on 151 Wing - July 1941-Dec 1941. 5 lever arch files or diaries/letters/log books and photos. Located 73 out of 76 pilots/officers or families with the unit, have a large majority of the log books and a few hundred photos. Been sat there for 10 years - again no time to write the book even though the research has been done. I kinda have not continued knowing I have still to locate 3 families - unfinished work! Again, thanks for your kind words. regards Mark PS - assume you saw the P47 story. http://www.dottiemaep-47.com/history.htm |
Re: Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills'
Quote:
For example, I./ZG 1 claimed some "IL-4" in late 1942 to mid 1943 on Ostfront. Example - 13 july 1943, whrn Hptm.Hermann shot down Il-2 of 1st squadron leader of 198 shap - the same aircombat when Blechschmitt was shot down by Lt. Yefimov, further 2xHSU. But Hermann noted Il-2 as "Il-4", as it scored in "LW abschusselist". But in real that "Il-4" were the same as "Il-2m.Hs." or "Il-5" or "Il-7", and NOT the real IL-4 (2x Engined bomber). It seems german pilots so called just "next modification of Il-2" :) |
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