JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Hi friends,
I am looking for any expert info, or at least opinion about following problem:

- In winter 1942-43 the Fw 190s of JG 54 were mostly painted by white winter color. There is possible to see that the original darker cammo is visible under this white. On this way I have these questions:

1) was the undersurface bottom side of the A/C also painted white, or there remains the original light blue color... (the old 64, or 65 or even 76???). In publications is possible to see many profiles where the A/C is completely white... but I am worry if this is correct...

2) what was basically the original cammo for upper side of 190s of the JG 54 from Autumn 1942? Grey based cammo or Green / Brown based?

Thanks for any opinion....
Best regards, Jan

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

The answer to question 2 I think is fairly easy - JG 54, as far as I know, did not receive any 190s until very late in 1942 and the one recorded loss I have occurred on 28-Dec-42 at Heiligenbeil in Germany, presumably during re-equipping/training/familiarization.

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Jim, thanks, this helps of course... so please do you know what factory cammo these fresh new Fw 190s had ?
Thanks, Jan

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Jan

The 190's left the factory in ther standard 74/75/76 camouflage colours of the period.

Jim P was correct with Heilenbeil - this was when the re-equipping of JG54, I Gruppe began. Others would follow in 1943.

JG54 used a combination of colours in the field. Two greens were a common finish as was green/brownviolet/tan was another wither in clear demarkation lines or more radom mixes of colour. It is very interest to see and the three colour combination was clear on Fw190A-5 1227, White A of 4./JG54 which was recovered in 1991. This aircraft was picked up in April/May Germany painted 74/75/76 and was lost on 19th July 1943 outside Leningrad (St Petersburg) with green/brownviolet/tan upper colours. The underside 76 did not change.

Hope this is of help.

regards

MS

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Mark,

many thanks for your reply. I did believe this, thank to you and Jim for confirmation.

One more ask, please - do you can describe the "tan" color... any equivalent in RLM? Do you mean the sand patches used in JG 54 during summer 1943?

Is there any website link or article source about the recovered W.Nr 1227?
It looks very interesting for me!!!!!

Thanks, Jan

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

It would be insanely difficult to determine with 100% certainty which colours were used on JG 54's Fw 190s, but it is a viable assumption that the older "green colours" RLM 70 and 71 were used. The "tan tone" could be RLM 79, but I have also seen a profile of a Bf 109 G-2 from summer 1942 which - according to Claes Sundin - used captured stocks of soviet AMT-4 (a light green which resembles the spring/summer environment of the birch woods of north-west Russia and the Baltics) so it might be possible that other captured soviet colours were used.

But there will probably never be complete agreement on the tones as the photographs of the time weren't particularly favoring colour research. ;)

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Jan

It is all in Ken Merricks book. Originally thought as field applied colours, I beleive they do actually have RLM colours. At work but cannot remember them.

No website except a piece on You tube when it was discovered - type in Fw190 recovery or something. Few articles but very limited access due to it belonging to Paul Allen (Vulcan). I have photos etc but cannot divulge them due to aconfidentiality agreement I have signed.

regards

Mark

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

I for one do not believe the aircraft were painted in RLM colors. Given the fact that Hitler could barely supply the troops in Russia with warm clothes, food and munitions, I don't belive that paints, especially tropical colors, were supplied in quantity, if at all.

The Germans overran VVS airfields capturing a great deal of equipment. The camouflage paint of the time could vary well make for multiple greens that appear on the aircraft. Give the basic scheme was AMT -4 (Green) -6 (Black)Black and AII Dark Green, Green and Black adding a bit of black to the greens will give one colors close to 70, 71, and even 80, 82 and 83. As for the brown there is AMT-1, in both a light sand and dark version.

It would not be the first time the Luftwaffe used captured stores to equip Luftwaffe units. It seems when Germany attacked France, the Luftwaffe used munitions captured in Poland, and in the bombing of th Britain, French munitions were used.

Also, the Luftwaffe had experience in mixing colors to obtain a desired camouflage scheme. The early grays used on 109s in the BoB were usually a mix of paints at unit level, and not factory supplied 74/75.

Just need to think outside the confines of RLM numbers.

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

I aggree that one shouldn't get stuck in RLM numbers only, but they are still a possibility. A total repaint wouldn't be done in the field anyway. It would be done at depots and besides, they got the fuel they needed so why not the paint?

AMT-4 looks about right compared to certain colorphotos but there are others that looks very much like RLM 61/81 and RLM62/82...

/Anders

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

But fuel is as essential as food. Paint is not. 60Kg can of paint or the same amount of aviation fuel in a Ju 52? Hmmmmmm.

As for the reference to use of 81/82/83, don't these colors post-date the painted aircraft in question?

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Merrick identifies the colours as the prewar 61/62/63, IIRC. It was not uncommon for the Luftwaffe to experiment with different colours in a geschwader at the front-line. Bear in mind that the unit was not actually right at the cutting edge but safely back within the supplied perimeter, and a few gallons of paint would not take up that much space on a train or lorry. Such a movement may well not have been a high priority, but over the course of a winter such a movement is not that unbelieveable.

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

The importance of fuel over paint reminds me of the stories during the Stalingrad airlift of crates of condoms being shipped in instead of food. Crazier things...

Somewhere I recall reading the theory (maybe from a Superscale decal sheet) that there were Fw 190s shipped during the winter with factory applied white camo. Does this theory still hold any water?

Don

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Hi

Interesting discussion.

Could be true that end 1941 JG54 had occupied 2-3 former and well equipped Soviet airfields around Leningrad. 1942 JG54 started experimenting with colours and could well have used Russian stocks. would this have run until 1943? I would guess unlikely. How much paint would that be? Could the JG54 colours be based on local colours and experience?

Why was it not undertaken with other units in other sectors and seems quite unique to JG54?

Attached are a few interesting photos. Colour photo of a Fw190 in my collection and the brownviolet and tan of Fw190 A-5 1227 White A of 4./JG54 taken in 1991. (Outside of my agreement with Vulcan).

Glaserit have scanned these and perhaps one day they could be checked against the RLM colours? These were very well protected and seem to have no weathering or UV degregation due to the protection of the tailplane.

regards

Mark

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Yes, the colors were the old pre-war greens and brown that was tested on JG54 aircraft and then brought back under the new names RLM 81, 82 and 83 (83 was not the old 63 though...). At least if Ken Merrick is right... If nothing else, it's an interesting theory!

Also, the repaints wouldn't have been done so close to the frontline that they would have needed to be flown in. Small repairs were done outdoors and in the field but a complete repaint required a depot. Except for wintercolors that was another matter...

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Few more bits and pieces but no video.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=109936

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=95898

http://www.geocities.com/s822019/190/1227/190_1227.htm

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qayREUJe65w

regards

Mark

PS - To me Ken is the expert on German aircraft camouflage - 40 years of research.

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Yes, Merrick's books are a bible, much has to be accepted on faith.

There is a lot of illogic and unsupported evidence that one either accepts or not. It is an arguable position at best.

As to amount of Russian paint available,probably helluva lot as there was intensive camouflaging of existing aircraft going on at the time.

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Evidence vs invention? Merrick's comments are based on a study of the actual machine. The idea that the Luftwaffe used Russian paints comes from where? Somebody's supposition, or actual evidence?

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Hello!

Soviet AMT-series was based on cellulose lacquer. Literally they are given as "nitrotselljuloznye emalevye kraski".

German RLM paints were mainly phenolic resin - "Phenolharzverkochung in aromatischen Kohlenwasserstoffen (see: http://www.kiroff.de/anwendungen/rlmflieg.htm , main Kiroff site: http://www.kiroff.de ).

Are these paints compatible with each other? Can AMT be painted over RLM paints without cooking them? This is particularily interesting for me for another reason, namely were (or could) Finnish nitro enamels used over German paintwork in FinnAF Bf 109 and Ju 88 etc. I think only empirical test would give us the definitive answer. Hot lacquers could in theory (and in practice) painted in so thin layers that the solvent evaporates before it destroys the paint beneath.

If they are AMT-paints on the 4./JG 54 wreck it shoud be quite easy to test? Cellulose paints would lift with cellulose solvent. Don't think the same happens with phenolic paint. People at Firm Kiroff should know.


Another thing. Are we really sure that it was JG 54 which introduced the odd three-colour camo? And in field? The couple of JG 26 Fw 190 photos on Eastern Front do show odd three-colour camouflage too. Perhaps they were painted already at Feldluftpark/Factory or whatever? Before deliver/transfer to field units. Chronologically JG 26 odd-camo came first, I think. I speculated this in an earlier thread but it did not spark real discussion then:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=8108






My two cents,
Kari

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

I can't speak for Merrick but as I recall, his evidence for certain aircraft wearing old RLM colors seems pretty solid. I don't consider it proof that the JG54 greens were all based on RLM colors though.

I've had discussions with Claes Sundin about this and he has compared Russian paintsamples with greens found on JG54 aircraft and found matches as well.

I don't see why so many wants to find a single explanation for the JG54 greens as I bet there are several. Early in the eastern campaign it seems JG54 used RLM70 and 71, maybe they thought they were too dark so that the mixed their own from other RLM colors OR used Russian colors. If they did and thought it worked better, I bet that a request would have gone out for German manufactured colors in similar tones and shades perhaps resulting in the re-issue of early greens and browns?

I've got no proof what so ever, so I'm not saying it happened like that, I'm just saying that all these explanations that we see are possible, and shouldn't need to rule each other out.

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

I have to agree with Modeldad for the most part. And I don't think JG 54 was at all unique as far as non-standard paint schemes. The best known and most outrageous perhaps, but there are some pretty funky/non-standard schemes on machines from a lot of other units as well - in that regard you need to look at the area where the unit is based. The Leningrad sector was heavily forested, so greens would be a natural. The unit's major base of operations for 2-3 years were major captured Soviet installations. Stands to reason that out of necessity they might use captured Soviet stocks at times. You're not going to stop operations waiting the next paint shipment.

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Is there any suggestion that this change in camouflage occurred at a busy time in the operations? Or that the repainting was a spur-of-the-moment job rather than planned in advance? That it had to be done in a hurry? I think you are inventing a new assumption here, in order to support a theory, working backwards rather than building any theories on existing evidence.

Re: JG 54 Winter 1943 cammouflage
 

Thank you everyone for your opinions, It is very great and informative for me.

Best regards, Jan