bombers at dieppe
 

hello,
for a research about aerial combat over Dieppe on 19.8.42 I´m looking for the bomber and recce losses of the following units:
Ju.88s I.-III./KG.6 (or maybe the former KüFlGr.106, I./KG.77), I./KG.1, I./KG.60
He.111 of III./KG.53
Recce units:
3.(F)/122, 1.(F)/123 and 3.(F)/123

The losses of JG.2, JG.26, II./KG.40 and KG.2 I allready have if anybody´s interested in.

Maybe someone can help?

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

I have no losses for KG 6, KG1, KG 60 nor any recce units. 11/KG 4 suffered a He 111 damaged, III/KG 53 suffered one damaged, one destroyed, 1/106 lost a Ju 88 over the UK (as did 3/106 which lost 2). Finally, I/KG 77 suffered one destroyed and one damaged

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Thanks a lot, Chris,

so when I counted right Luftwaffe lost on 19.08.42 over Dieppe (plus UK) 19 Fw.190A of JG.2, 6 FW.190A of JG.26, 2 Bf.109G of JG.2, 1 Bf.109G of JG.26 (= 28 fighters), 12 Do.217 of KG.2, 3 Do.217 of II./KG.40, 4 Ju.88s of KFlGr.106 and KG.77 plus the single He.111 of KG.53 (= 20 bombers). These are total losses excluding damaged aircraft (are the figures correct?). It would be interesting to know more about the locations/ times where/when the Ju.88 and He.111 losses occured.

Greetings

Monaco

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

No times are given for the losses and to match who got whom has not been possible apart from the UK losses. The KG 4 ac came down at Calleville near Rouen; one of the KG 77 losses came down at Forges-Les-Eaux, the other at Azourville; the 106 ac came down at Boniface Down, Isle of Wight, 4 miles SE of Selsey Bill and West Dean respectively

Losses are not far from that..

That is better more to follow

The KG2 in the area

The last bombers units

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Thank you folks for the support,

with this data it will be possible to verify the RAF claims in more detail. They made claims for: 47-27-76 Fw.190s, 3-1-2 Bf.109s, 33-8-46 Do.217s, 8-3-11 Ju.88s and 5 He.111s. As allready known (Franks, Caldwell) there was much overclaiming which is no wonder in the conditions prevailing (many aircraft in a limited space at the same time, whirling dogfights, German and Allied AA fire, smoke, shot down aircraft ploughing into sea etc.), but it must be noted that the Luftwaffe claims were more accurate even when some sources (Franks) notice that of about 106 RAF aircraft lost 30 have been lost to Flak and 4 to bomber return fire (I personally doubt the flak loss figures). According to Woods Luftwaffe submitted claims for 103 Spitfires (5 of them attributed to return fire from Do.217 crews of II./KG.40, 1 to a recce pilot of 1.(F)/123), 1 Hurricane, 4 Mustangs, 1 P-39 (almost certainly a 31 FG USAAF Spitfire), 1 Hampden (in fact a 418 Sq. RCAF Boston) and 1 Blenheim – the great bunch of them by JG.2 and JG.26.
10.(Jabo)/JG.2 is credited with the destruction of 1 destroyer (according to Goss & Caldwell: HMS Berkerley) and 2 Landing craft sunk, 1 destroyer (HMS Calpe ?), 2 trawlers and 2 landing craft damaged. RAF HSL 147 was sunk at 1503 6 miles from the Somme Estuary (Probably by Ju.88), HSL 122 & HSL 123 were sunk by Fw.190s in the afternoon around 1650 (probably of the Jabo-Staffeln of JG.2 & JG.26), HSL 177 was damaged by strafing (p.m.) and ML 495 claimed 1 Ju.88 damaged (Franks).
Both air forces showed great spirit and readiness, for example S/L Pete Wickham (CO 111 Sq. RAF) flew 5 missions to Dieppe, Uffz. Mayer (6./JG.26) made 9 flights. The outstanding performers of the day were without doubt Ofw. Josef Wurmheller (1./JG.2) with 7 victories (No.53-59 Kacha AOL; No.54-60 according to Franks) in four sorties, Oblt. Siegfried Schnell (9./JG.2) with 5 victories (No.67-71), Oblt. Kurt Ebersberger (4./JG.26) with 4 victories (No.25-28),Oblt. Fülbert Zink (2./JG.26) with 3 victories (No.24-26) and Ofw. Emil Babenz (2./JG.26) with 3 victories (No.19-21).
To distribute the losses/ claims of both sides in this „Greatest Air Battle“ will be a sysiphos task and never to be solved with 100% accuracy, but some attributions can be made.

Regards

Monaco

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Hi Monaco,

can you please share losses of Luftwaffe bomber units during this day?

Thanks

Faenor

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

From Baalke:
Of KG.2 63 Do.217s attack the landing ships at Dieppe; 14 are s/d or destroyed (total losses); 12 are damaged (I. Gruppe: 4-4, II. Gruppe: 7-2 -> withdrawn for replenishment and recuperation; III. Gruppe: 3-6). After the day´s fighting KG.2 has only 12 crews available for action (Stab: 1; I./KG.2: 3, II./KG.2: 3; III./KG.2: 5). The crews reported the following successes:
09.42: 6 (8) Do.217s attack the invasion ships with 24 SC500 from 800-2.200m: hits on 1 destroyer (Oblt. Hankamer, 4./KG.2, Do.217 damaged in combat with several Spitfires), 1 transport (~1500 grt) and several landing crafts; 2 Do.217 of 5./KG.2 lost.
?: 3 (5) Do.217s (I./KG.2; t/o 10.00) attack 3 destroyers with 12 SC500 from 800-1.500m, but scored no hits.; 1 Do.217 lost 6km S Dieppe; 1 Do.217 crash-landed at Abbeville, 1 Do.217 (Fw. Handel & crew) escaped 5 Spitfires.
?: 5 (10) Do.217s (III./KG.2; t/o 10.37) attack the invasion ships with 16 SC500 from 600-1.800m: Only one hit on the forecastle of a destroyer; 2 Do.217s of 7. Staffel (Oblt. Hackel and Fw. Elias) had to make emergency dropps, because of Spitfire attacks (1 KIA, 1 WIA); 3 Do.217s and crews are missed over the sea.
?: 4 (4) Do.217s (4./KG.2; t/o 11.54) to attack the invasion ships; 3 s/d and 1 crash-landed with severe damage at Abbeville.
?: 3 (5) Do.217s (I./KG.2; t/o 12.30) attack 1 destroyer and 1 freighter of the invasion ships with 12 SC500 from 700m; Oblt. v. Manowarda & crew score a near miss on the destroyer, the other two crews are s/d by Spitfires.
12.35: 2 (2) Do.217s (t/o: 12.01) report 1 bigger transport, 2 formations of MTB and LCI 5km off Dieppe whilst directly on the beach no enemy vessels were sighted.
14.20: 3 Do.217s of III./KG.2 t/o, but return from Dieppe when no enemy is sighted.
? : 3 (6) Do.217s (I./KG.2; t/o 14.22) attack the invasion ships off Dieppe: one dropps it´s bombs on landingships from 1.800m, one from 2.000m and the third attacks the mole from 200m; results unknown, because of artificial smoke; 3 other abort due to fighter interception and record 1 Spitfire and 1 Curtiss s/d.
? : 5 (9) Do.217s (II./KG.2; t/o 15.08) attack the invasion ships off Dieppe and drop 64 SD50 and 4 SC500: landingships are near missed, one transport directly hit by 3 SC500 from one crew; 2 Do.217 see nothing and abort; 2 Do.217 s/d and crashland at Dieppe and Turnhoult.
?: 3 Do.217 (II./KG.2, Oblt. Hankamer, Ofw. Brendebach & Ofw. Moese t/o 17.15) against the retiring british ships in the Channel.
?: 1 (4) Do.217 (I./KG.2 t/o 18.00) against Portsmouth harbour: one bombs with 3 SC500 from 2.500m; 2 abort, because of lacking cloud cover, 1 because of fighter interception.
?: 1 (3) Do.217 (III./KG.2 t/o 19.00) against Portsmouth harbour: one bombs with 4 SC500 from 400m; 2 abort, because of lacking cloud cover.

For losses of other units I think there was another thread...

Cheers

Monaco

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

I have a complete list of bomber losses but what is your interest?

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Hi Monaco - thanks for info

Hi Mr. Goss - I will try check claims/or overclaiming of 310. Sq (Czech) together with 65. and 165. Sq, which claims 2-3-13 during sweep over Dieppe.

Faenor

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

To try and match who got who is difficult as:

I/KG 2 lost 3 Do 217s with four damaged
II/KG 2 lost 6 with 3 damaged
III/KG 2 lost 3 with one damaged
11/KG 4 suffered one He 111 damaged
II/KG 40 lost three Do 217s with one damaged
III/KG 53 lost one He 111 with one damaged
I/KG 77 lost one Ju 88 with one damaged
KuFlGr lost 3 Ju 88s over UK

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Thanks Chris,
are you sure that the KFlGr.106 Ju.88A4s were lost over the UK?
I have:
"M2+FH" Wnr. 140718 (Lt. E. Kogenbein & crew, 1 KIA, 3 MIA) of 1. Staffel lost 100% cause and place unknown.
"M2+EL" Wnr. 1534 ? (Fw. P. Lehmann & crew, 4 KIA) of 3. Staffel lost 100% cause and place unknown.
"M2+FL" Wnr. 1534 ? (Uffz. F. Kottarier & crew, 3 KIA, 1 WIA) of 3. Staffel lost 100% cause and place unknown.
A fourth Ju.88A-4 (Wnr. 140078) of KFlGr.106 was damaged (20%) and force-landed at Chateaudun A/D after combat damage.

Cheers

Monaco

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Luftflotte 3 reports that 106 sent 3 Ju 88s to attack Portsmouth between 1700-1718 hrs followed by another 5 between 1832 and 1940 hrs. A further Ju 88 attacked a ship at 1906 hrs in PlQ 15W/2146 and another attacked the airfield at Thorney Island at 1851 hrs. 3 Ju 88s were lost-Kegenbein crashed on the Isle of Wight, Nottmeier was shot down off Selsey Bill and Lehmann crashed at West Dean. These crashes occurred between 1815 and 1930 hrs UK time

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Hmmm... one? I have two. The "3Z+FL" (100%) and the "3Z+YK" (45%).

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Hmm? Not at all. 3Z+FL was 100% at Forges-Les-Eaux with 4 killed and 3Z+YK 60% at Azourville with 2 wounded. They were after the same thing as 106-6 ac attacked Portsmouth between 1925-1935 hrs and one of these attacked a ship at 1929 hrs. Another 4 dropped bombs on the Isle of Wight. It is interesting that the only mention is of the Azourville aircraft which was attacked by a Beaufighter at 1935 hrs off the Isle of Wight, lost and engine and force-landed at the emergency airfield with two wounded crew after which they counted 80 holes in the aircraft. There was only the one claim by a Beau and that was 141 Sqn and it was always thought that they had shot down Nottmeier's Ju 88. Looking at the NVM, for both, it mentions they were both damaged by fighters in sea targets connected with Dieppe

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

Better would be Auzouville-Auberbosc and the other I have with Fontaine-en-Bray (but the difference to Forges-les-Eaux are 11 km only).

Re: bombers at dieppe
 

All that the NVM says is Forges-les-Eaux and Azouville sur Ry whilst the Luftflotte 3 report states for the latter Auzourville (bei Rouen) Notlandplatz