EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hi

I believe there has been some discussion with regards to the number of aircraft equipped with these.

I have come across listings of which aircraft types where produced with breakdown to subtypes for the Bf 109 and FW 190 for 1945, where these numbers are mentioned (subtype given as D9 EZ 42)

The listings also include all production numbers by month from January 1944 through March 1945 (last one dated in April 1945). In a lot of cases specific information on number of aircraft delivered to a given unit is mentioned. I do not know if these are of interest to anyone?


Regards,
Andreas B

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hello Andreas,

That sounds very interesting!

I have some production numbers from the diary of Kriegstagebuch Chef TLR, but would have to dig them out. Would be interesting to compare.

Also, I would be interested in how many Me 109 and Fw 190 were equiped with the EZ42.

Is the Me 262 also mentioned in your documents?

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hi,

all aircraft models produced in the given timespan is mentioned, from reconnoissance through fighters and bombers and even school aircraft.

Example:

February 1945,

Nah-aufklärer:

Me 262
No aircraft from ordinary industry, but 13 from Umbau-Industrie. All 13 taken over by GenQu and delivered to NAG 6

Jäger:

Me 262
212 new, 11 repaired, 1 additional repaired, total 224.
93 of these delivered to the industry for further installation of equipment (Nachrüst-betr.)
20 of these delivered to the industry for modifications (Umbau-Industrie)

44 delivered to RLM from Nachrüst-betr.

Thus a total of 155 (224 - 113 = 111 + 44 = 155) aircraft taken over by GenQu.
42 delivered to Lw.Kdo.West and 113 to specifically reported units:
25 I./JG 7
10 II./JG 7
7 III./JG 7
13 I./K.G.(J) 54
19 II./K.G.(J) 54
28 III./K.G.(J) 54
6 III./K.G.(J) 6
3 10./N.J.G.11
1 Fl.Ü.G.1
1 Jgd.Verb.44

Schul:
Me 262
13 new from industry, 3 from nachrüst-betr. and 3 from umbau. = 19 in total taken over by GenQu

9 III./E.J.G.2
3 IV./E.K.G.1
4 Fl.Ü.G.1
2 II./J.G.7
1 II./E.K.G.(J)


Of interest?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

HI Andreas,

That's very interesting!

Does the document tell to which Nachrüst/Umbau-Betriebe the Me 262s went?

Is the EZ42 also mentioned with regard to the Me 262?

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Andreas,

looks very promising, allthough the documents sound familiar. I sent you an e-mail for further infromation.

Cheers,

John.

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Please give a list of the aircraft deliverd with the EZ42. Your example above of the ME 262 info. doesn't list which aircraft had the EZ42 installed.

I have never seen any information on the EZ42 being installed in Bf-109's. I don't believe it would have fit in the cockpit in any practical way.

I have read the TA-152 was supposed to have it, but have never seen any proof so far.

From what mixed info. I have about the EZ42,

Delivered,
27 or 28 x FW 190D-9's with EZ42
4 x FW190D-11's with EZ42

As I collect gunsights, I constantly look for the EZ42 among others in all pics I come across. In the last 10 years I have found pics of it installed in only four aircraft. If there's more please be so kind as to post them.

I've seen pics of the EZ42 in

FW 190A-8, operational
FW 190D-9, operational
ME 262, testing
Do 335B-2, testing

Regards,
Mike

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Dear All

I can confirm , as I have seen a clear picture depciting it that EZ 42 was installed in a Fw 190D-11.

All the best

Eric

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

According to Obb. Forschungsanstalt, E-Stelle Tarnewitz had an order to equip 8-109 aircraft of JG 300 with the EZ 42 for operational testing and to ensure installtion in a manner corresponding to future series production.

Hal

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

I don't believe this was ever accomplished. The EZ is a big sight to try a squeeze in the Bf-109. Wishful thinking perhaps on the Germans.

Mike

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

There`s not that much of a difference between the 109 and 190 canopy dimensions actually, they are pretty much the same size. For example, post-war Czech produced 109s airframes were fitted with FW 190D-9 canopies of the blown type and they seem to fit nice.

Fritz Hahn notes in his classic book on LW aircraft armament that some 200 FW 190s and Me 262s were fitted with the EZ 42. Perhaps he used the same source..?

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

It's not the canopy dimensions that are an issue, it's the interior measurments.
Later model 109's went with the Revi 16B (which is nearly half the size of the C/12D) and mounted it on a bracket that could be swivelled out of the way for better vision and pilot safety concerns.
The only way to mount an EZ42 (quite large) would be by mounting it back closer to the pilots face. Just not a very practical set-up in 109's.

I have never seen a pic of an EZ42 in a 109 nor have I read or heard of any pilot stories that mention the EZ42 in 109's.
All the pilot's that talk of using EZ42's seem to be 190 or 262 pilots.

Revi C/12D
Lange 220mm
Breite 103mm
Hohe 170mm
Gewicht 1.4kg

Revi 16B
Lange 130mm
Breite 60mm
Hohe 126mm
Gewight 0.7kg

EZ42
Lange 268mm
Breite 114mm
Hohe 190mm
Gewicht 2.5kg

Regards,
Mike

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Mike,

Please don't forget that while the Revi 16B and C12/D was shorter in length they were not directly attached to the panel but had a flange or tube on which they were mounted. The EZ42 could be attached directly to the panel and would not have been closer to the pilot's face than a 16B. The same thing was done in the Me 262 were the tube on which the Revi 16B could be swivelled out of the way was cut at the horizontal tubular frame and the mounting plate of the EZ42 was directly attached to the horizontal tubular frame (w/o the possiblity to swivel the sight).

I think I have seen at least photos of a EZ40 (not the later EZ42) in a Me 109 (I have to search my documents, but I found the photo at the NASM archives some years ago).

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

The C/12D uses a mount bracket approx. 7mm thick.

Don't see the EZ42 attaching directly to the instrument panel. No attach points for something that weighs 2.5kg. Even with the front of the EZ42 up against the instrument panel you would still be about 4cm closer to pilot.

There is also a difference in distance from pilot to instrument panel between the 109, 190 and 262. As an extreme example look at the Hs-129, had to mount C/12D outside, forward of the windscreen.

I'm still stcking with it just wasn't a practical set-up in 109's. I just haven't seen any evidence that they were used in 109's. I'm sure at some point alot of different sights were installed at an experimental trail and fit level.

I'm open to learn more. Please show me a pic, pilot report or any documentation that EZ42's were used in 109's.

Regards,
Mike

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Mike,

The Revi C/12D had a mounting frame of about 10cm length.

I have to go through my documents to find the photo of the Me 109 panel with EZ40 (if I remembered correctly), but as a "quick proof" I attach two photos of the adjustment switch box of the EZ42 which had specific adjustments for the Fw 190 and Bf 109.

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Mike,

I think because most cockpit photos show the C/12D only from the pilot's view you have not noticed the rectangular frame inbetween the panel and the Revi or Revi mounting plate (which you have shown in your photo). I have attached a photo where you can see the mounting frame. The C/12D was not directly attached to the panel.

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Thanks for the pics. I guess I misunderstood what you were referring to. It use to be a lot closer in the early 109's, Pic 33 & 38.

http://www.moskittech.ru/eng/myze/Bf.../Bf-109B-1.htm


Still would like to see some 109/EZ pics.

Regards,
Mike

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

To accommodate the Revi C12B in the 109B, they needed to mold a wedge into the windshield to stop the gunsight from rattling against the windshield (From the 109B weapons manual, L.Dv. 228/1 (1937), page 29). On most 109A/Bs, they cut out part of the panel and glued on an outer panel. See: http://www.moskittech.ru/eng/myze/Bf.../Bf-109B-1.htm photo #33. Later they simply changed the slope of the windshield from 45 degrees to 35 degrees.

So, there was very little spare room in that aircraft, and I side with those who have doubts about a gyro gunsight fitting into the cockpit. But, the Germans could do amazing things when they needed to, so nothing would surprise me.

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

I couldn't find the photo of the Me 109 G cockpit with the EZ42 anymore, but I remember it very well. It might be that I haven't copied it as I was focused on the Me 262.

So, while I don't have a photographic proof for the use of the EZ42 in the Me 109 right now, I have at least a proof that it was intended to be used in the Bf 109 K-4 (see attachement: report about a visit of Messerschmitt personnel of the Askania company regarding the EZ42). I am sure that the people at the E-Stelle Rechlin and Askania had checked the dimensions in a Me 109 first before they made this decision and even started to print Bf 109 specific data sheets for the EZ42 adjustment switch box. By the way, the Bf 109 is also mentioned in the manual of the EZ42.

To summarize: There is no doubt that the EZ42 could have been installed in a Me 109. To prove that it actually was needs photographic evidence (which I have seen but unfortunately cannot present to you as I haven't copied it).

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hello,

After going through my documents, I have found evidence that it really was installed in a Me 109!

A "Besprechungsniederschrift: EZ42 in 8-262 und 8-109" of Messerschmitt AG dated 24 Nov 1944 mentions:

"I) Einbau EZ42 in 8-109: E-Stelle Tarnewitz has the task to install the EZ42 in 8-109-aircraft of JG300 for testing. The installation has to be done in a way that corresponds to the later serial production installation.
(...) Fa. Obb.Forschungsanstallt has assessed the installation of the EZ42. (...) As explained on the drawing the line of sight cannot be kept the same as for the Revi 16B. The line of sight of the EZ42 will be 12mm higher and 20mm to the right of the fuselage center line. The EZ42 will be installed on a swiveilling mount similar as for the 16B in order to avoid obstruction during entering and exiting of the aircraft as well as to avoid injuries of the pilot during emergency landings."

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

For what it may be worth, here's a EZ 42-report taken from a "Schwerpunkterprobungsbericht Nr.50/44 der Erprobungsstelle Tarnewitz für die Zeit vom 10.-16.12.44.":
Cheers
Hans

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Thanks for all the new info. guys!

How many JG300 aircraft had it installed? One, two, a dozen???

I never doubted that the EZ42 was intended to be installed in the 109 along with all the late model fighters. The Germans had "intended" alot of things that never materialized, like production figures up thru 1946.

Other than testing, I have never seen a pic, pilot report or documentation that shows a 109 was delivered with the EZ42 installed. Every pic of a "K" that I've seen has a 16B in it. I'll have to double check, but I don't believe the K-4 manual even mentions the EZ42. It only shows the 16B.
I find it odd that there aren't any 109 pilots that report using the EZ42 or any paper work showing 109's delivered with it.

Look at all of the 262 pics that are out there, I've only seen one pic with an EZ42 installed (testing) and we have pilot reports to backup that they were actually used.

Regards,
Mike

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hmm, this won't do much to help the pilot's view forward and down along the cowling.

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Here on LEMB you will see an EZ42 inside one of the JG7 Me 262 at Fassberg, even if it is in the post about "black X" it was actually inside "white5":
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/fo...p?showtopic=17

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

In the well documented "Heinkel He 162...Last-Ditch effort by the Luftwaffe" from Peter Müller it is said:

p150: that M-30 and M-31 fitted with the EZ 42 are though to have been part of the nine pre-production airplanes transferred to JG1.

p222: repro from an original document dated 24.2.1945 explain that cause of Dresde attacks EZ42 is not possible to install on He162 for some month.

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Mike, from the same source as above in No.20. I found the following regarding JG/300 and EZ 42. The first one is dated 11.11.44., the second 2.12.44.

Regards
Hans

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Excellent pics & info.! Thanks everyone!

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Just for idle information: II/JG 300 had 5 EZ 40s installed in their Fw 190s during mid-August 1944. Lt. Brettschneider, SK of 5./JG 300; and Uffz. Schroeder of 5./JG 300 had two of these.

Any idea what the difference is between the EZ 40 and EZ 42? I know that the EZ 40 was the prototype and the EZ 42 the series version. Anything else?

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hello Andreas,

To come back to your initial post: would it be possible to show us this document? I think it contains a lot of interesting and relevant information to this thread.

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hello George,

The EZ40 had the gyros attached directly to the gunsight head (the mirror was directly attached to the gyros) while the EZ42 had two separate gyros installed in the fuselage. Electric impulses governed the mirror in the EZ42.

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Thanks for that, Roger.

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

EZ 40, 41, 42, 44.

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hi Mike,

Great documents, thanks! I only had the one about the EZ42 so far.

There was even an EZ45 that should have superseded the EZ42.

Regards
Roger Gaemperle

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Great stuff, Revi!! Thanks for taking the time to share this with us.

Note that the EZ 40 in Revi's series of gunsights is the Zeiss product, together with the EZ 41, the EZ 44, and the EZ 45 (not shown here). The Askania products were another EZ 40, bulkier than the EZ 42, and installed in a handful of Fw 190s in August 1944, and the EZ 42.

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

WRV1 & Visieranlage1

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Again, great stuff, Revi!!

But, I do wonder how they would have set range with these two gunsights. Perhaps they preset the enemy aircraft wingspan and firing range on the gunsight, as had the Brits with their Mk. II gunsight.

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Outstanding stuff Revi16, thank you!;)

Re: EZ 42 in FW 190
 

Hello!

I finally found the photos of a EZ40 installed in a Bf 109! There is also a drawing of the EZ40 and wartime photos of this gunsight. I sent them to Horst Beck who owns as far as is known the only EZ40 left today.

He uploaded the photos on swapey. Here is the link:

EZ40 Gyro Gunsight

Best regards
Roger Gaemperle