jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Gentlemen,

The following is from the 416th Night Fighter Squadron records regarding a USAAF Mk 30 Mosquito chasing an unidentified aircraft.

"17 February 1945. At 2250 hours Lts. Kangas and Herron left on a GCI patrol. Along the coast, Kangas reported 40 white flares dropped between the bombline and La Spezia at an altitude of 11,000 feet. So he went to investigate.

"Flares were being dropped by what appeared to be a jet-propelled aircraft. The pilot initiated a pursuit by visual contact estimated to be ten miles away. The chase lasted six minutes, closing to around one mile before the 'jet' aircraft climbed and disappeared in a hole in the overcast.

"The pilot indicated 380 mph air speed, whereas GCI report they clocked him at 458 MPH ground speed."

Did the Luftwaffe operate any jet aircraft in Italy during the war? Or did the 416th NFS crew mis-identify the aircraft they chased?

Norman Malayney

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

The Americans had a few P-80s in Italy late in the war.



Ed

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Kommando Sommer flew with a few Ar 234 B from Udine in Italy on reconnaissance missions.
Lost the aircraft piloted by G. Gniesmer on 11 April 1945 to P-51s of 52nd FG near Bologna.
The Kommando had 3 Ar 234 on strenght April 10, 1945.

Source: World War II Fighting Jets, J.Ethell and A. Price, Airlife, 1994.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Hello!

I hope I am not disturbing the thread. But this is something I just have to ask:

Kangas is a Finnish surename (literal meaning: heath/moor). Was lt. Kangas of Finnish origin? What is his first name? Where could I find more about his career in USAAF and the planes he flew?

Thanking in advance,
Kari

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Only 2 YP-80s (44-83028 and 44-83029) Ed, with the 1st Fighter Group based at Lesina Italy. Two went to GB, 44-83026 and 44-83027.

The Monogram Monarch book by Smith and Creek has a short chapter on Ar 234 operations in Italy.

The pilots of the P-51s that shot down Gniesmer were Lts Hall and Cooper. Gniesmer bailed out but struck his head on the a/c and died 2 days later from the fractured skull.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

For completely detailed (almost daily) reports of the operations and activities of Kommando Sommer in Italy, you can check "Air War Italy 1944-45" by Beale-D'Amico-Valentini (Airlife Publishing Ltd., Shrewsbury, 1996) ISBN 1 85310 252 0.

Hope this helps.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

The only jet unit to appear on the Luftwaffe order of battle in Italy was Kommando Sommer with three Ar 234. We (Gabriele Valentini, Ferdinando D'Amico and myself) found no archival evidence for any other jets apart from the two P-80s already mentioned.

As for the members of Kommando Sommer, Ltn. Gniesmer had only got as far as Lechfeld by 21 February and Stfw. Arnold reached München-Riem the next day. On 27 February they were still in Bavaria, held up by bad weather. Erich Sommer himself only flew to Italy on 14 March.

I corresponded with Erich Sommer (now deceased) for several years and there was no mention of his unit flying by night. Apart from anything else they would have needed some means of deploying parachute flares or flash bombs to take night photographs.

Norman, your account mentions flares and that points to night photography and that was the role of the Ju 188 D-2s and Ju 88 T-3s of 4.(F)/122, based at Bergamo, Italy. I can't account for the measured speed of the contact but can confirm that FAG 122 had aircraft up on the night of 17/18 March 1945.

P.S. to Norman: if you have anything on the 416th's only kill of 1945, by Capt. Lawrence E. Englert and 2./Lt. Earl R. Dickey on 28th February (another Ju 188), I'd be interested in seeing a copy.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your assistance. I will search for information on Kangas from the 416th records. They list his home town and university he graduated from.

The 416th were always attempting to shoot down "Recce Joe" who flew over Allied territory at night taking photos using the photo-flash bomb technique with Ju88s from Begamo. The Mosquiotes even attempted to shoot down the German aircraft as they landed at Begamo during the night.

During one mission on 24 March 1945, after observing several patterns of flares over a period of time, Capt. Iribe correctly deduced the pattern of signal flares to have the runway lights turned on. He asked his navigator, Talmidge Simpson, to fire a set pattern of flares, and the Luftwaffe turned on the runway lights. Iribe then attempted to strafe Ju88s parked along an apron but S/L and anti-aircraft fire forced him away.

The above account is from Talmidge Simpson, although the 416 NFS records state the events quite differently:

"Capt. Iribe had been stooging around Begamo airdrome to receive Recce Joe on his return. He dipped behind one mountian in hiding and waiting, once roaring down over the airdrome like a lion on its prey. Searchlights tried to cone him and he was shot at from all over. He stooged around until a warning came that Recce Joe was returing to base, then circled the airdrome. Recce Joe came in, was coned in searchlights, identified himself with a serie of red flares. Field landing lights came one, he landed, lights went off all in a matter of a few seconds. Iribe was not in a position to attack but came in behind him shooting red flares. Searchlights tried to catch him again. He went home tired after a busy night."

Memories fade with time, and this may have happened with Mr. Simpson. He may, or may not be corrcet in his recollections.

Give me time to answer your requests for information. Just returned from Mawell AFB where I copied records of various WWII units, including those involving the 416th. Need time to digest this information.

It seems there was no jet involvment with the chase as previously described. But how do we account for the high speeds recorded by both the Mosquito and GCI.

Yours very truly,
Norman Malayney

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

A Ju 88S with GM-1, and FuG 217 tail-warning radar?

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Close!

On the strength returns for Italy on 1 March 1945 you have a choice of the Ju 88 T-3 or Ju 188 D-2 on strength with 4.(F)/122.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Hi - just my ´two-pennies´ ...

Quick calculation: 380 mph indicated (x 1.609), is 611 km/h but at 11.000 feet translates to true airspeed (TAS) of 745 kmh but the GCI mesurement of 458 mph, groundspeed comes out as 736 km/h (he then had an slight headwind or crosswind component of about 10 km/h ~ 5.3 knots).

Possible piston aircraft can be Ju 88 T-3 with GM-1 or Ju 388 L-0 / Nacht - sufficent quantities of both types had been produced at that time - and delivered to the Luftwaffe - but who knows ?

Likely not an Ju 88 S as that was the Bomber version, but I remember reading on Ju 388 performance ´The maximum speed is 383 mph at 40,300 ft´ in the Vernaleken / Handig ´Ju 388 book´ or ttp://www.ju388.de/

That only makes (616 km/h) but finding exact performance at 11,000 feet (3.300 m) was harder. Same book P.181 has performance chart of Ju 188 J-3 with various engines but none reaches that at 3.300 m in level flight - just possible in a dive (and 770 km/h were recorded on Ju 388´s).

Is it possible this plane DIVED below the overcast (as stated abowe) - to take photos - reaching that speed whilst in the dive - levelling off - then the Mossie was able to chase and close in - but then outclimbing the Mossie in time - as Ju 388 L climbing ratio was indeed excellent! But then likely an T-3 if it can match that speed.

cheers
ed

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Sorry, I meant a Ju 88 T recce a/c. But getting back on this site to make the correction has been a real bugger.

Well, if there were no night-flying jets there, as Ed said, what else is there? Hmm, Nick's return shows Me 410 A/B-3s in 2.(F)/122. Might they have been in the area? Because about 30 of them got GM-1 installations.

Thanks for the strength return on FAG 122, Nick.

Actually, it sounds a bit like "Washing machine Charlie" over Guadalcanal, which the Americans spent a lot of time and effort in trying to catch.

Cancel most of the above! At 11,000 feet and up to past 20,000 feet, GM-1 would be useless. So, it's back to the old reliables, the Ju 88/188.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Ed: I'm as sure as I can be that it was not a Ju 388 L-0. In more than 20 years of researching the Italian campaign and using sources from both sides I've found no evidence at all of that type being delivered to Italy.

George: the KTB of 2.(F)/122 at Freiburg records no Me 410 flights at the relevant time. The Staffel's operations were all by day.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Thanks for that, Nick.

All the best,
George

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Anyone with an interest in this topic may like to look at the latest addition to my website.

"Kommando Sommer: the road to Italy" traces the story from the decision to deploy Arado 234s to Italy to the first recorded operation by Kommando Sommer.

The article makes use of a lot of new material that I've been researching over the last several months and among other things identifies the date that the first of the Kommando's jets arrived and the name of its pilot. It also makes a bit more sense of the sequence of orders and changes of mind in Germany that eventually led to Sommer getting the job.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

According to KTB G.d.A. Kdo. Sommer lost most of its material when the traintransport was attacked. It was then decided to send Kdo. Götz to Italy, with Sommer as KdoFührer. The Kdo. Sommer returned to Versuchsverband OKL!

Junker

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Yes I know (and when you read the article, you'll find it there) but the story is more complex than that and the KTB falls a long way short of telling the whole story.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Hi Nick.

A fine piece of work!!!

Junker

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

my witness was shure to saw a Me 262 in the late days of war at Orio al Serio airport Bergamo.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Sorry, but no Me 262 did ever operate or flew in Italy, as evidenced in the postings of this thread and by the results of many years of researches.

The personal experience acquired through all this time, taught me to be extremely vary of "eyewitnesses" which claimed sightings of all kinds, most of those with hindsight reached through informations and inputs often gained only after the war, a sort of "layered" memory.

Even ANR pilots themselves did seem to remember "Me 262s" which in all cases proved to be either one of the three Ar 234s briefly based in Campoformido since late February 1945.

As already said, the only two airfields used by the Ar 234 (or by jets) were Lonate Pozzolo and Campoformido (not to mention a short stay in Osoppo of one Arado which required RATO rockets assistance to take-off) and each of their flights was duly reported, and also, due to the the very tiny quantities allotted of their special fuel, those were carefully placed only in the bases they used, and Orio al Serio wasn't among the recipients.

Last but not least, due to the very classified knowledge and use of the German jets, their movements were duly tracked and reported on documents both by the Germans and by their enemy, the Allies. The absence of any trace of such presence is a further evidence, IMHO.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

I'd just add my growing impression that to people in 1944-45, "all jets looked the same", perhaps because it was the absence of propellers that made the greatest impression on anyone who saw one of these aircraft, not the details of their shapes. I can think of at least two pilots who shot down an Ar 234 but claimed an Me 262 for.

Also, we tend to think of a bomber as being much bigger than a fighter but the Me 262 and Ar 234 were not so far apart in size (or so I thought when I built models of them when I was a boy!).

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

my eyewitness is a 84 age civil pilot that lived on the edge around the Airfield, entusiast in fling since ever. He confirmed me that was a ME 262 and not Arado ( he well know the planes), infact he think this plane was sent to Orio al Serio just for a Propaganda fly to give a hope to all Lufwaffe personnel in the base. The plane stayed at orio just a day.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

Though absolutely respecting you and your source, such kind of unconfirmed (and most probably never confirmable) individual eyewitness account from memory, contrasting with all documented sources (and also, with all due respect, contrasting with plain logic and opportunity at that time of war and on Italian theatre), IMHO is unfortunately destined to remain just as it is, an unconfirmed memory.

Re: jet aircraft in Italy?
 

It's also important to establish what recognition aids would have been available to an Italian civilian at that time. Had accurate drawings, photographs or film of the Me 262 or Ar 234 been made public in Italy? If not, it suggests that the witness made a later identification, based on memory. If that was so, how long afterward did he associate what he had seen with the Me 262?