Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

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- Allied and Soviet Air Forces (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/forumdisplay.php?f=7)

- - Soviet Air force (http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=11708)

Artist

26th January 2008 04:11

Soviet Air force

Hi Guys, I would like to learn more about ( I know almost nothing know) the Soviet Air Force in WW II. Fighter Units, Markings, Aircraft, ect. Can anyone piont in a good direction on internet sites or books I should start out with.( not the Aces of the .... please) thank you, Bob

fsbofk

26th January 2008 06:02

Re: Soviet Air force

Though I haven't read it yet, Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours 1941-1945, by Erik Pilawskii (Classic Colours) looks good and has gotten good reviews. The discussion on camouflage is presented within the context of each of the VVS' main fighters, with a chapter for each aircraft covering its development and operational history in about 6-10 pages of text and 12-15 pages of color profiles and plan views, general arrangement drawings, and photos.

Evgeny Velichko

27th January 2008 08:36

Re: Soviet Air force

Hi!
1st of all: about Erik Pilawskii - he has very bad fame in Russian Speaking community (and falling down more and more in the West) because of "his veiw" on VVS colours. ALL his information is fake. IT IS PROOVED, but he just ignore truth.

Helpfull link:

http://allaces.ru/

Soviet Aces (in Russian):

http://avia-hobby.ru/publ/sovaces/sovaces_4145.html

Aircrafts of aces (in Russian):

http://avia-hobby.ru/publ/sovaces/aircraft.html

Order of Battle of Soviet Fighter Regiments:

http://avia-hobby.ru/publ/soviaps/soviaps.html

Some issues:

http://avia-hobby.ru/publ/publ_ww2.html

Artist

27th January 2008 16:55

Re: Soviet Air force

Thank you guys. Hi Mr. Velichko, Maybe you can help me. I would like to paint V.I.Popkov's La-5FN. I have some good information on his aircraft but would like to learn about markings on other aircraft that would have flown with him.I do not understand markings on Soviet aircraft. How do you tell what units an aircraft may have flown with by its markings.thanks for any help you can give me, Bob

Evgeny Velichko

27th January 2008 17:03

Re: Soviet Air force

La-5 of V.I. Popkov, 5 giap.

http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachmen...0&d=1157366429

If You have Il-2:FB flight simulator, You may download skin of this aircraft:
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/showpost....&postcount=249

Best wishes.

fsbofk

27th January 2008 18:19

Re: Soviet Air force

Thanks for the info.

kurlannaiskos

29th January 2008 06:39

Re: Soviet Air Force

Evgeny,
what proof do you have that Erik Pilawskii is wrong ?
please present it so that you do not get reported to the forum's moderators/administrators as posting Internet libel/slander.

Evgeny Velichko

29th January 2008 14:43

Re: Soviet Air force

kurlannaiskos :

Ahhhh... it was discussed SO many times, that I fell hard to repeat it. You need to look in special forums (modellers, flight sim skinners e.t.c.).

He use "his oun in mind" colors, paintschemes, mixing units and pilots "that way what he want"...

After some people tell him : look on the photoe, it is a part of LaGG-3 wing, look on the colours and then to "Yours" - and compare - he start to use rude words.

Yes, because he will NEVER admit that ALL his "authority" will fall after he will admit that all his "knowledge" is his OWN SPECULATION.

Why? Because he got big money for his CD and Books. For example this:
http://www.airforce.ru/book_review/p...a_cd/index.htm

But colours are amasing.
For example this La-5:
http://www.airforce.ru/book_review/p...cd/index.3.jpg
is painted from this:
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachmen...5&d=1200633375

But it is POSTWAR PAINTED aircraft. Colours were discussed, it is FULL new, NON WW II time colours (mix of green and blue for appersurface)

This La-5:
http://www.airforce.ru/book_review/p...cd/index.2.jpg
Correct colours (skin of Il-2:FB flight sim, painted by VVS color researcher "Bomber"):
http://forum.sukhoi.ru/attachment.ph...6&d=1164379183

I repeat: sourse of Pilawski is only his oun "inmind speculation". Sourses of my friends are reall WWII documents, photoes of parts of founded (not post-war overpainted) aircrafts, real WW II orders, reports of tests... Many.

Best wishes.

Pilot

29th January 2008 15:08

Re: Soviet Air force

Evgeny Velichko- I on your side. before Eric i have read some other researchers and even get the the list of the Soviet industrial chart with the today standards of the WW2 colors [they are still producing]. Also I have seen some Soviet colors and I have one in my collection. This is dark blue grey top side color for the fighter airplanes. This color is dark blue grey, not medium dark green blue as I have seen on his profiles and descriptions.

Must say that he has done a lot of work and his book look nice but I did not know that it have that much errors.

Cheers

Srecko Bradic, Serbia

Owner- www.letletlet-warplanes.com
Moderator- www.burek.co.yu

Evgeny Velichko

29th January 2008 15:23

Re: Soviet Air force

Somewhere in Aviamodellers forums (in Russian) there were photoes of WW II planes parts: Il-2 and MiG-3 and LaGG-3, with darkgreen/blackgreen/lightblue REAL COLORS.

Trying to find that post now but cant.

They seem not like Pilawski colours, even close... :)

kurlannaiskos

30th January 2008 06:55

Re: Soviet Air force

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko

You need to look in special forums (modelers, flight Sim skinners e.t.c.).

But colours are amazing.
For example this La-5:
http://www.airforce.ru/book_review/p...cd/index.3.jpg
is painted from this:
http://www.sukhoi.ru/forum/attachmen...5&d=1200633375

But it is POSTWAR PAINTED aircraft. Colours were discussed, it is FULL new, NON WW II time colours (mix of green and blue for upper-surface)

anything having to do with a video game is entertainment and is not historical research.
as a model builder myself I would be interested in anything you have to making more accurate models of VVS aircraft of this period.
that profile was done by Chris Banyai-Riepl , not Erik Pilawskii
of course it has incorrect colors, most of the colors used during the GPW disappeared shortly after it ended.
you will note the photo credit listed with the profile states a photograph that was taken in 1945.
Mr Pilawskii knows full well that this aircraft was not green (in fact gray)and has been trying to tell people that for years, they are the ones who are not listening.
http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/Modeling/L...2345/index.php

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeniy Velichko

This La-5:
http://www.airforce.ru/book_review/p...cd/index.2.jpg
Correct colours (skin of Il-2:F.B. flight Sim, painted by VVS color researcher "Bomber"):
http://forum.sukhoi.ru/attachment.ph...6&d=1164379183

again, a profile by Mr. Reipl, not Mr. Pilawskii
it might even be as you say , but how do you prove it?
do you think this aircraft was painted in green and brown?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evgeniy Velichko

Sources of my friends are real WWII documents, photos of parts of founded (not post-war over-painted) aircrafts, real WW II orders, reports of tests... Many.

Yes , it is exactly these sources and factual information that I am after.
please be specific , let's get down to the details.
as for wrecked aircraft - what has the environment done to the paint on these aircraft after 60+ years? I hope no one expects them to look as if they just rolled off the factory floor.

kurlannaiskos

31st January 2008 21:36

Re: Soviet Air force

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pilot

...the the list of the Soviet industrial chart with the today standards of the W.W.II colors [they are still producing]. Also I have seen some Soviet colors and I have one in my collection. This is dark blue gray top side color for the fighter airplanes. This color is dark blue gray, not medium dark green blue as I have seen on his profiles and descriptions.

Srecko,
are you trying to tell me that the C.I.S. is still producing World War Two colors?
what on Earth would they want to do that for? the needs of a modern jet-powered air force are vastly dis-similar to the propeller-driven aircraft of the past.
what about this paint chip in your collection?
has it been chemically tested for solvent base and pigment?
what paint family does it match?
was it a primer or a finish coat?
where has this paint been for 60 years? and what conditions were it under?
heat,humidity, salinity etc...? underground? underwater?

Pilot

31st January 2008 22:32

Re: Soviet Air force

Kurlannaiskos :)

Quote:

are you trying to tell me that the C.I.S. is still producing World War Two colors?
what on Earth would they want to do that for? the needs of a modern jet-powered air force are vastly dis-similar to the propeller-driven aircraft of the past.

I don't tell you I just have info from some very good sources. And and and and... in the UK is still manufactured the same colors as they are established in the early '30. Today for excample Sky is used today in furniture manufacturing too. So what is problem if this colors are made later in Soviet Union [I mean on WW2 colors]. I have somewhere chart with conversion of the WW2 paints into the modern industrial Soviet chart.

Sample I have is taken after 50 years, exctracted from the leading edge of the elevon. Place was all time in the shadow and away from the any actuator so keep safe from grease. This is final top coat. I have few color images of one other Soviet fighter in preservation with visible topcoat colors and they also also very close to sample I have. I never heard dark dark blue grey was used as primer. There was light blue in this place among the other paints. Sample I have never was under ground, under water... Maybe in some future will make some work in this field.

It is not my intention to talk and analyze anybodys work but just state that at quick view things are not match.

Cheers :)

Evgeny Velichko

1st February 2008 00:46

Re: Soviet Air force

Ok, I see. I hope telling the facts to You is not the same thing as trying prove somewhat to Pilawski = it is easier to bite the moon :) I want polite and gentle discussion.

Ok. Just a simply reply.
Pilawski is an "author" of so called "acid VVS colors". And color profiles You mentioned are based on his "colors".

To imagine the "level" of knowledge (and the depth of researching the object) of "GURU", we can look here just 2 simple examples:

Quote:

Il-2 AM-38F "White 25" Unit, Location and Pilot unknown.

http://vvs.hobbyvista.com/DigitalMod...06/june06.html

This is Il-2 AM38F, from 16 VA, in propaganda flight over Berlin, April 1945. Several photos were taken, all shown in links below. To make more “moral effect”, photograph just simply “edited” one of photo “for newspaper”, adding white arrow and furious “Mstitel” (Avenger).
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000d1hd
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000c914
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000brzs
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000asat

Result: http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000f64p

Il-2’s, presented on that photos, are painted in standard NKAP-43 scheme. It just cannot be in “two colored” scheme (as Erik claim) because average life of Il-2 was short, even it was not shot up or damaged. Just because of wooden details were damaged by water/sunlight. Il-2 “two-colored”, built in late1942 to mid 1943 could not survive so long life. Easy.

Elements of NKAP-43 are seen on right wing of this Il-2 from 16 VA:
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000edk8

Twotone scheme was AMT 4 and AMT 6, but not AII lacquers (used before 1941). There were no Braun color in VVS.

Quote:

Il-2 AM-38F 566 ShAP Summer 1944 Leningrad Font pilot unknown

Franek Grabowski

1st February 2008 00:47

Re: Soviet Air force

Well, he is not willing to accept that Soviets used silver colour both for markings and codes, but still following the old myth of yellow star edges.

kurlannaiskos

1st February 2008 03:25

Re: Soviet Air force

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilot

I have somewhere chart with conversion of the WWII paints into the modern industrial Soviet chart.

I have few color images of one other Soviet fighter in preservation with visible topcoat colors and they also also very close to sample I have. I never heard dark dark blue grey was used as primer. There was light blue in this place among the other paints. Sample I have never was under ground, under water... Maybe in some future will make some work in this field.

I would be very interested in this chart you mention.
(I wonder if this chart was used by the makers of AKAN enamels.(model paint)
what preserved fighter is that? I'm always interested in seeing Soviet aircraft of this period preserved for future generations.
let us hope a proper scientific examination of this paint sample is made.

Pilot

1st February 2008 08:54

Re: Soviet Air force

Quote:

(I wonder if this chart was used by the makers of AKAN enamels.(model paint)

No- it is not. I have even noted this material as well info about this to some manufacturers and result is that they discard all corespodence with me. Thats what happen when you have friendly intenetion to help somebody. After that I don't try to help anybody, I am not messiah.

Massimo Tessitori

27th February 2009 08:38

Re: Soviet Air force

Hi all,:)
This is a very interesting discussion. I would have a lot to say, but perhaps it's better that some unpleasant things are forgotten.

Quote:

This is Il-2 AM38F, from 16 VA, in propaganda flight over Berlin, April 1945. Several photos were taken, all shown in links below. To make more “moral effect”, photograph just simply “edited” one of photo “for newspaper”, adding white arrow and furious “Mstitel” (Avenger).
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000d1hd
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000c914
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000brzs
http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000asat

Result: http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000f64p

I have looked at these photos with attention.
The thing that astonish me is that the plane with writing is photographed much more clearly than the planes aside, in much better light and focus.
In my idea, it's the photo of a real plane, but taken separately and glued on the original image of planes over Berlin.

Massimo

DiegoZampini

9th March 2009 06:29

Re: Soviet Air force

Hi, all (specially to Yevgeny Belichko and Massimo) :)
I'm "the new guy of the block", so (in spite reading some literature about aerial warfare in WW2 in the Eastern front), I ask you some patience till get at tone with you, guys, that evidently knows a lot about the topic.
In another thread in this forum I saw an interesting attempt to determine how many actual kills out of a certain amount of claims actually scored some German aces (together with the subsequent percentages, and which method was used to determine the actual tally).
I would like (if you're not against) to make a similar analysis regarding some Soviet aces, and the one I'm more interested is no other than the great tactician Aleksandr Pokryskin. After reading an excellent translation of his book "Небо Войны" (The Sky of War") from Russian to Spanish, and beginning to read "Познав себя в бою" in Russian (something like "Knowing himself in combat") I'm delighted with the plain and honest style of writing of Pokryshkin. For his description of the aerial combats he was involved, in most of the cases it seems clear that he is absolutely certain about many (if not all) of his victories. But I would like to see how many of his claims match actual German losses.
I'm specially interested in his claims made during the Battle of Kuban, and in the air battle over Bolshoy Tokmak on 21 September 1943, when he claimed to shot down three Ju.88s (two were credited, the third was apparently downed by the explosion of the first bomber downed by Pokryshkin) and a fourth was apparently flamed by Grigoriy Rechkalov. Anybody knows which were the actual losses suffered by the Luftwaffe on that date?
Thank you very much in advance. If this post is more correctly placed in another thread, please tell me in which.
Kind regards,
Diego Zampini

Dénes Bernád

10th March 2009 14:49

Re: Soviet Air force

This latter query would deserve it's own separate thread.

Nikita Egorov

10th March 2009 15:58

Re: Soviet Air force

Pokryshkin claimed almost all of his victories in the days of fierce fighting in the air, so considering overclaim, it is rather impossible to identify whom he shot down and if he shot down something indeed. Thus, for 21 september 1943 for three Rumanian Ju-88 losses, 8 Soviet claimers, excluding Pokryshkin.
BTW, Rechkalov did not claim Ju-88 on this date...

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