"Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Hi all!

I am trying to find out Normandie claims over Bf110 on 13 july 1943. Any info?

How many? Times? Locations? May be combat reports...

Best wishes!

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

In aerojournal HS number 3 on Normandie Niemen :
Littolff, Castelain & Durand each claim 1 Bf110G while escorting IL-2s over Koselsk : 19h40 (East European Time ?)
The patrol face 24 Bf110s, and 5 of them try to intercept the Il2s
On the German side, the Bf110G2 Wk Nr 6111 (2.ZG1) is highly damaged, and G9+BA is destroyed (Major Joachim Blechsmidt kimmodore of 1.ZG1 and the rear gunner killed). They most probably meet French claims.

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

An account, in French here :
http://mairie.pagespro-orange.fr/fre.../m+soviet.html

And the Aerojournal HS gives an account from Castelain

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Hi! Thx for answer!

From SKG 210 / ZG 1 damage/losslist by John Vasco:

13-07-43
Bf 110 G-2, Stab./ZG 1, S9+BA, W.Nr. 6295, 100% , Obstlt. Joachim Blechschmidt (MiA), Uffz. Hans Wörl (MiA), Force-landed behind Russian lines lines following combat with Russian fighters. Both crew seen to leave the aircraft. Uljanowo - Bolchow (Actually Ulyanovo - Bolkhov)

Bf 110 G-2, 2./ZG 1, W.Nr. 6111, 25%, Damaged by enemy fighters. Near Uljanowo.

Bf 110 G-2, 3./ZG 1, W.Nr. 6292, 15%, Technical problem. Uljanowe- Bolchoff.

Vitaly Gorbach, author "Nad Ognennoy Dugoy" book about air combats during Kursk Battle. sayd that it is thought that Blechschmidt became PoW and somewhere in archives there are report of questioning.

For this day and area I received following data.According combat report of 303 iad:

14.49-15.47 (briefly, report of 198 shap is large): 4 Il-2 of 198 shap (leader - Kap.Malinkin) with escort of 4 Yak-7 of 172 iap (leader Maj. Vyazovik), mission to attack enemy retreating troops on road Durnevo-Sorokino-Ulyanovo, came under attack of 6 Bf110 from 6 oclock and 6 Bf110 + 2 Fw190 from 12 oclock.

1st pair of Il-2 was attacked by 4 Bf110, 1 of them attacked Il-2 of Kap.Malinkin, but Bf110 was hit by Il-2 wingman (Efimov) and breaked. Another Bf110 shot down Il-2 of Malinkin. 2nd pair of Bf110 attacked Il-2 of Efimov, but breaked because Il-2 gunner fire.

2nd pair of Il-2 came under attack of Bf110's, failed to return on combat missions.

Claims:
Bf110 damaged by Il-2 Lt. Efimov, 198 shap (attack from behind, ~30 metres - result : "left engine burned, heavy smoke);
Bf110 shot down by Yak-7 Maj. Vyazovik;
Both in area of Ulyanovo.

Losses of 198 shap:
Il-2 (Zav.Nom. 7353), Malinkin (Pilot), Smirnov (Gunner) - KiA;
Il-2 (Zav.Nom. 5667), Zinovsky(Pilot), Rezodubov (Gunner)- MiA;
Il-2 (Zav.Nom. 1295), Nemira(Pilot), Ivanov (Gunner)- MiA,

"19.22-20.20 8 Yak-9 (leader Kap. Littolff), escort mission to Durnevo area. Air combay on alt.=800-1200 against 20 Me110. Claims - 3 Me110 (Littolff, Castelain, Durand). All 3 Me110 crashed in area of bridge. Durand fought against 8 Me110, Castelain made attack from below."

Must add: in area of bringe across Vytebet river was heaviest battle of 11 Guards Army, tryed to forse it. All over the day bridge was under attack of german aviation.

Your report says: Ktsyn (Кцынь) area. But it is far away from Ulyanovo-Durnevo area.

Map: http://pics.livejournal.com/bersrk/pic/0000tkfw

Durnevo - Дурнево
Ulyanovo - Ульяново
Sorokino - Сорокино
Ktsyn - Кцынь
Krapivna - Крапивна (Herrmann KiA of AAA on thext day, 14.07.43 over it)

In that fight 198 shap vs ZG 1 one Il-2 claimed by Hptm. Herrmann, directly in Ulyanovo area. No more claims of Bf110 in that time and area, but it known that 2 other Il-2's were shot down by Bf110.

As for me, I can only propose that they are "unclaimed" victoryes of Blechschmitt, who attaked least pair of Il-2's, shot them, and then attacked leader of 1st pair, but was damaged by Lt. Efimov and breaked, trying to emland with burning engine. In same time Hermann "finished" Il-2 of Malinkin.

Anyway, to be 100% certain, we need TIME of loss of Blechschmitt. But we have no.

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Where exactly is the account in the link that you have given?

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Translated using Google :)

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Very interesting account, thank you.
Do you know which version of Yak7 the y used, was it the "bubble canopy variant ?

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Last versions of Yak-7B had such, as Yak-9. Difference is: 7 had 2 UBS guns, but 9 had 1.

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Being the author of the book on Normandie-Niémen, I must be fair.
Castelain statement is as follows:
"The sudden dive and the smoke belching from the 110 leads me to believe in a positive result, but being attacked by another Me 110 I was not able to watch it crash".
The claim will be confirmed by ground witnesses.

Littolff's claim is less doubtful, since he watched "his" 110 crash 5 km NW Kstin bridge.

Which one is Bleschmidt's -if any - remains an open question.

Chris

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

[quote=Evgeny Velichko;59422]Hi! Thx for answer!

From SKG 210 / ZG 1 damage/losslist by John Vasco:

13-07-43
Bf 110 G-2, Stab./ZG 1, S9+BA, W.Nr. 6295, 100% , Obstlt. Joachim Blechschmidt (MiA), Uffz. Hans Wörl (MiA), Force-landed behind Russian lines lines following combat with Russian fighters. Both crew seen to leave the aircraft. Uljanowo - Bolchow (Actually Ulyanovo - Bolkhov)




Hello,
I'm trying to find out some details about Blechschmidt's last aircraft. If it was equipped with any Rüstsätze? For example, in early 1943 several planes from ZG 1 was equipped with the Bordkanone BK 3.7. What about BF 110 G-2 ( code S9+BA ) ?

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Hello,
I'm trying to find out some details about Blechschmidt's last aircraft. If it was equipped with any Rüstsätze? For example, in early 1943 several planes from ZG 1 was equipped with the Bordkanone BK 3.7. What about BF 110 G-2 ( code S9+BA ) ?

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Me 110 shoot down the 1"th July 1943 By the 1st VA :

1 for the 2nd IAK (Corps of fighters = 2 divisions = 7gv IAD (1st GV IAP : 27 Yak-7b, 89th GV IAP : 30 Yak-7b and 146 IAP : 32 Yak-7b) and 215 IAD (2nd Gv IAP, 263th and 522th IAP) )
1 for 224 ShaD (Sturmoviks division), one damaged for the 233 ShaD perhaps this of the 198 IAP ?????
1 for the 303 IAD (Figthers division = 18 Gv IAP, 20 IAP, 168th IAP and 523th IAP) this below report of the 18 GvIAP.
1 for 309 IAD. : (49th, 162th, 172th and 272th IAP)
3 for the french GC3 "Normandie"

14th soviet aviation regiment with 4 squadrons and two free french squadrons.

Location :

Ulianovo :

One shoot by Major Nikolaî Aleksevitch Biazovin dead 15th July 1943) of the 172 IAP (beetwen 14h49 and 15h57 near Ulianovo.

Архив: ЦАМО, Фонд: 20270, Опись: 1, Дело: 11, Лист начала документа в деле: 96.

Perhaps :

Bf 110 G-2 (6111) 2./Z.G. 1
Enemy fighters. Near Uljanowo 25% F


One other Me-110 claim in the " Raume von Uljanowo"

Repport of the 18th GvIAP for the 13th July 1943 : One shoot near Yagodnaia (Raume von Uljanowo) by the Captain Siberin of the 18 GvIAP (303 IAD) at 11.55 a;m.

ЦАМО, Фонд: 20265, Опись: 1, Дело: 18, Лист начала документа в деле: 137

"At 11.55 7 yak7 under the command of Captain Sibirin accompanied 6 IL-2 to the Yagodnaya district. When the target approached at a height of 300-600 meters, they met 6 Me-110, 4 fw-190, 2 Me-109, which they got out to attack the attack aircraft. Captain Sibirin, at an altitude of 300 meters, attacked from behind from a 1/4 angle from a distance of 70-50 meters, shot down 1 Me-110, which was crashed and burn 3 km south-east Yagodnaya."

3 km south-east of Yagodnaya it's near Gorodok.

Perhaps ;

Bf 110 G-2 (6292) 3./Z.G. 1
Technical failure. Sljanowo-Bolchoff 15% F

or

Bf 110 G-2 (6252) Pz.Jg.St. Z.G. 1
Mihatsch, Ltn. Werner FF
Weiß, Uffz. Harry BF
WIA due to Flak. Bf MIA.
West of Gorodok 100% F

I must have to read the report of the ground unity for DCA activity.

We have no proof of the destruction of an Me-110 by an aircraft of the 198th SHAP

5.30pm report from the 198th Shap. Архив: ЦАМО, Фонд: 22435, Опись: 0017416, Дело: 0001, Лист начала документа в деле: 275

Group of 4 IL-2 planes -
Leader captain MALINKIH - sub-lieutenant gunner Smirnov,
Deputy: Lieutenant EFIROV - machine gunner Dobrov,
Winger Sub-Lieutenant ZINOVSKII, machine gunner Redovubov,
Sub-Lieutenant HEMILYA - machine gunner Ivanov
at 3.20 p.m. from a height of 600 meters on a low-level flight approach attacked artillery positions on the southern outskirts of the village. Sorokino.
Leaving the attack, Captain Malinkin - machine gunner Smirnov in plane No. 77353,
Sub-Lieutenant Zinovskii, Redovubov machine gunner, in plane n ° 5667,
Second Lieutenant Nemilya - air. Ivanovna gunners plane number 1295
did not return from the combat mission.
The position and condition of the crews are unknown.
According to the group's deputy, Lieutenant EFIMOV -
Captain MALIKIN and ZINOVSKY were shot dead in the area of ​​Smetskie Vysilki - Nov ogryn. Ml. Lieutenant NEMILYA left the Sorokino area with a heading of 80 °.

It is only in the following report that we have some explanation. This shows that the pilots only have a partial view of the events.


Sorokino = 35 Ost 54421

Most likely because the pilots of 172 IAP give the region of Ylianovo as the sector of the attack.

13.07.43 Ofw. Rudolf Rademacher 1./JG 54 Il-2 £ 54,443: at 200 m. 14.14 Film C. 2032 / II Anerk: Nr. 617

07.13.43 Ltn. Günther Scheel 2./JG 54 Il-2 £ 54,442: at 600 m. 14.12 Film C. 2032 / II Anerk: Nr. 615

13.07.43 Ofw. Rudolf Rademacher 1./JG 54 Il-2 £ 54,442: at 200 m. 14.09 Film C. 2032 / II Anerk: Nr. 616

I continue, look for them in the archives

PS : Ktyn is a bridge on the Recceta river not on the Bytebet the flowing river of the "Raume von Ulianovo".

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Hy everyone,

After translation of the Soviet archives of the various units of the 1st Army for the realization of my "Atlas of Normandy-Niemen".

It appears that the Niemen did not attack the Ktsyn bridge, it is an error in locating, the French took the wrong bridge when writing their report.

The French did not attack this Recceta bridge but a bridge over the Vitebets river.

The Ktsyn bridge is attacked by the 996th ShAP under the protection of 7 Yak-7s of the 513rd IAP who claim 1 Me-110.

The problem with the Normandie-niemen is that everyone is working on second or third hand work and no one is working on the archives.

It is also necessary to cross the archives of the different units to unravel the errors which are not uncommon in the Normandy reports.

Best Regards

Laurent

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

This combat is in BCRS vol 5

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Some of my russian friends have found the wreck of the Bleschschmitt's Me 110.

According to witnesses to the discovery of the center section of this plane, there was no obvious damage.
What goes in the direction of the hypothesis of Evgeny Velichko, the plane would have been touched with an engine.

I will try to ask for another photo
https://trizna.ru/forum/uploads/mont...2e256e2c5e.jpghttps://trizna.ru/forum/uploads/mont...794f827430.jpg

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Which date are you talking about here? The 12th or the 13th?
Since the " is above the digit 2, the 12th is the obvious one, but since the topic concerns the 13th, I am simply curious....

Cheers
Stig

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Hello Stig "=3 , it's the same keybord

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

Thanks (not sure what keyboard you use, but it is not standard in Sweden :) )

Cheers
Stig

Re: "Normandie" claims over Bf110, 13 july 1943
 

To close on the fact that one of the pilots of the Normandie-Niemen allegedly shot down Joachim Blechschmidt between 7:22 p.m. and 8:20 p.m.
I give you the Diagram illustrating the report of the 996th ShAP of the 224th ShAD which attacked the bridge of Tsyn' between 7:40 p.m. and 8:20 p.m.
During this mission no Luftwaffe intervention was encountered above the target.
This confirms once again that the fighting occurred above the Dournevo bridge.
The French in writing their report were mistaken between the valley of the Resseta river and that of the Vytebets.
This can be explained by the fact that the French pilots have never flown in this sector since their arrival in Kozelsk on May 20. The very few pilots who have flown since that date only know the Duminitchi sector.

https://zupimages.net/up/23/28/48lv.jpghttps://zupimages.net/up/23/28/g8yt.jpg

Legend :---------------------- KTSYN'--------- CROSSING------------------------------------ DUDOROVSY