Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion
 

I believe there were over 2,000 US airmen that crossed the Pyrenees going back to Allied territory. Were there any Luftwaffe airmen that crossed them back into German occupied territory? I realize there was the French underground to help the Allied airmen and I do not think there was such a vast group available to any Luftwaffe pilot shot down over the other side but I am curious if any of them ever made it back from Allied occupied territory.

Thank you in advance,
Brian

Re: Luftwaffe Escape and Evasion
 

Brian: Bit of a strange question. There was no need for Germans to evade from the Spanish whilst Allied aircrew had to evade from German and Vichy forces. Any Germans that landed in Spain were repatriated in due course

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Nd that's why it's so easy for the allied crews to cross the Pyrenées, nobody obstruct the way coming from the other side.

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Perhaps I should have been more clear in my question.
Does anyone have any information about Luftwaffe pilots that were shot down over Allied territories and escaped back to Axis controlled territories?
I was trying to use the Pyrenees as an example of an extreme journey that some made.

Thanks.

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Franz Von Werra was the only one who escaped and made it back (before US enetered the war) although many others tried. Those shot down behind Allied lines in the desert or Normandy 1944 and who made it back are harder to ascertain. Russia was a different matter

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Von Werra was quite a story wasn't it?!! That's what I was looking for, thank you!

Were Russia and the desert more difficult to research because of the closeness of the fighting and soldiers could find their comrades relatively 'easy'?

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On 26 Feb 1942 Lt. Arnold Stahlschmidt had to crash-land his Bf 109F-4/Trop in the area of Bir Hacheim near a truck column of Polish troops who took him prisoner. After severely beating him, he was interrogated and during the night he was placed behind barbed wire. He escaped when the guard fell asleep and walked back to the German lines.

I had read that Erich Hartmann had been taken prisoner by Russian troops and was being transported via truck when he struck his guard and jumped out of the truck, making it back to the German lines several days later.

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There is a brief, general account related to Luftwaffe aircrew shot down behind Russian lines on page 47 of Luftwaffe im Focus 11. A quote: "It is impossible to say how many German pilots and crewmen lost their lives while trying to regain their own lines, but the number is probably higher than one would think."


Regards,
Ed

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And in the North, Horst Carganico made two forced landings behind Soviet lines -- In July and August 1942 -- and made it back to German lines.

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The reason, Brian, is the front line was fluid as opposed to static thus making it easier to get back

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A veteran who was there on the ground had his jaw wide open reading the account. No wonder, account form the other side is so different. I am wondering what was the source of Stahlschmidt account, was not it published already during the war?
Additionally, there were several evaders in Poland in 1939, and I recall a story of yet another Canada escapee, who traveled via Russia, but was not publicised because of Barbarossa.

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Franek,

look e.g. here http://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/beisfjord.html
"Another Stuka made a forced landing at Beisfjord the same day. A5+DK of 2.StG 1 was shot down by a Hurricane of 46 Sqdn.RAF (Sgt.Taylor). The Stuka crew(Ltn.KlausKübel) was taken prisoner by Polish troops and shot dead shortly after."

I think we must admit that we were not saint. And I think your veteran could be not everywhere and see everything.

Robert

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Hans Ulrich Rudel is another pilot who successfully got back to German lines in Russia.

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13th August 1942. Bf 110 F-2, LN+MR, of 13.(Z)/JG5 piloted by Lt. von rabenau was shot down over Russian lines. Bordfunker Uffz. Karl-Fritz Schröder baled out behind Russian lines and eventually returned to the German lines on 16th August 1942. Eric Mombeek's 'Eismeerjäger, Band 1' gives the full account. Not an escape, but definitely an evasion.

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KG 55 book shows crew of Fw. Justen made an emergency landing behind enemy lines on 13-5-1944. They made their way back to the German lines of 2./Jag.Regt.25 on 25th. May.

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JG54 had two pilots return from behind Russian lines after going down. Otto Kittel went down on 15Mar43 and was 80km behind the lines. Herbert Broennle went down in the fall of 1941 20km behind the lines near Leningrad. Both returned by traveling at night.

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A completely undocumented case. How it was confirmed those were Polish soldiers? I am not certain if they were in the area at the time. Also, the statement does not specify if they were executed, they could have been well shot during an escape attempt.
It is your custom to take any gossip as a true, but you cannot diminish my statement. It is very clear - Polish soldier present at the time of events provided me with an account which does not confirm any word of Stahlschmidt but a fact of his shot down. Construction of Stahlschmidt's account sound like it was directly taken from a propaganda publication.
That was exactly what I have stated and please do not try to change meaning of my words.

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I am investigating one off the better escape and evasion story of the Luftwaffe told by the German captain himself at Uniklinik, Freiburg when a group of four managed to get out of Iceland after a He 111 was hit by AA fire over Reykjavík airport mars, 19th 1941. They where running around the south of Iceland untill out of the country by the only ship sailing to Spain that year, april the 5th to be precise. This story is unbelivable as the four of them split up two and two. The crew is belived to be from/operated for Fliegerfuhrer Atlantik as KG26. Stab. Fliegerfuhrer Nord out of Norway. Værnæs.
Gudbrandur

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[quote=Franek Grabowski;59928] I am wondering what was the source of Stahlschmidt account, was not it published already during the war?

The account comes from Arnold Stahlschmidt himself and is printed in Hans Ring's and Werner Girbig's Jagdgeschwader 27. The report was written prior to his death which occured on 7 Sep 1942.

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[quote=Sylvester Stadler;60040]But Stahlschmidt was killed before publishing the book, so he could not provide the authors with the account. I recall reading, that he cooperated with some war correspondents or journals, but cannot say if it is true.

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At last when the story come from the mouth of the horse....all is questionnable

Don't forget reinhardt Heydrich who was "escaped"

remi

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In Normandy, where the Poles and Canadians fought side-by-side, the Poles would simply march German PoWs in front of a table, behind which an officer sat, declare them war criminals and shoot them. End of story. This was watched by a friend of mine in the Canadian Army.

All the best,
George

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[quote=Franek Grabowski;60042]What difference does it make whether Stahlschmidt gave his report to a reporter or to his intelligence officer? His account is either true or false, or partly true and partly false. Evidently, Christopher Shores in his book, Fighters over the Desert, on pages 96-97, considers the account as accurate.

Here is what Shores has to say: "Suddenly his engine cut during a pass, and he force-landed, ramming a truck. He was hauled from his cockpit by troops who turned out to be members of the Polish Brigade. The angry Poles beat him with rifle butts, and kicked him, ripping off his decorations, and making run the gauntlet of the column. He was then examined and interrogated by a Polish and a South African officer, before being sent to another camp. After midnight he managed to escape, and walked about five miles to the spot where he had originally crashed, finding there a German outpost which returned him to his unit without more ado, his return causing great jubilation. A few days later he returned to Germany on leave with Lt. Marseille."

It is certainly possible that Stahlschmidt was in no condition to return to a flight status with the injuries sustained from the treatment of the hands of the Polish soldiers. Gabrowski lives in a fantasy world where the Poles can do no wrong. The killing of thousands of German civilians in the first days of the war (September 1939) by Polish soldiers and civilians is evidence that the Poles could commit war atrocities (see the works of Alfred-Maurice de Zayas). Gabrowski presents no evidence that the beatings of Stahlschmidt did not take place, only presenting an un-named "witness" who was allegedly there. What we have here is the statement of a participant (Stahlschmidt) and no other participant has ever come forward to testify as to what he saw or did.

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George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command. It is unlikely if not impossible. Most of PoWs execution were on the spot, in the heat of combat, just like a well known execution at Dachau performed by GIs. There is still standing question, where, when, and where are the bodies. And I am curious if your friend mentioned any executions by Canadians?

Sylvester
The question is very simple - what is the origin of Stahlschmidt's account. Christopher Shores is no God and has no monopoly on truth, and neither provides answer for the question nor verify it with other sources. Your question on what is the difference between propaganda account and a report is rather naive to say the least. By the nature, propaganda distorts the reality either to support own morale or to scare people to increase their efficiency. Every propaganda account, and German and Soviet in particular are highly suspicious and should be always verified against other sources.
Your note about Stahlschmidt being not fit to fly and send to Germany is only a supposition of yours and not based on any grounds. The same about your 'evidence' of crimes against German civilian population. The trick is that the German civilian population was armed, and in Bydgoszcz/Bromberg it attacked Polish troops inflicting serious losses. Also, in parallel, there were several brute attacks on Polish civilian population on the area. There are reports of numerous German agents smuggled to Poland and photographs of their equipment, so you cannot claim it is a Polish invention. You also fail to note numerous crimes committed by the German troops, in particular infamous 4 Panzer Division, which in eagerness even shot their own.
One more thing that makes the difference between Germans and Allies. Those were decisions on the highest levels of German government to mistreat Allied airmen, and not only some trigger happy soldiers, who could act in some emotion.

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Can you document this ?

Best from Norway
Olve Dybvig

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There were some evasives and escapes by Hungarian crewmembers as well. Two famous aces swam the Dniepr as well to reach the German lines in September and October, 1943, respectively (György Debrődy was shot down behind Soviet lines on 25 September, 1943 then Lajos Tóth on 3 October, 1943)

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[quote=Franek Grabowski;60159]George
Your story does not make sense. The desk suggests it was a court, thus a paperwork should exist, so it must have been known and accepted by Allied command.

I believe George is referring to a "kangeroo-court". It is rare for such a court to document and have regard for the law since it acts on its own authority.

[quote=Franek Grabowski;60159]George
It is unlikely if not impossible.

Henry Fielding said it best about people who are prone to using absolutes. "Impossible - a word which in common conversation, is often used to signify not only the impropable, but often what is really very likely, and sometimes what hath certainly happened; an hyperbolical violence like that which is so frequently offered to the words infinite and eternal; by the former of which it is usual to express a distance of half a yard (or metre), and by the latter a duration of five minutes".

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Since when does murder have to make sense? The German PoWs were marched up before an officer behind a desk, labelled war criminals and then marched off and shot. No one bothered to interfere because they didn't much care for the Germans either, and the Poles were fanatical about this. Hey, when the "good guys" carry out war crimes, the bodies disappear -- just more of Normandy's rich farm land.

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Killing of prisoners, is something that today is well accepted, at least from one side, the praised movie of Spielberg upon Normandy hv minutes long of prisoners killing, it looks that makes very funny the killers

rémi

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As far as the Italian front in 1944-45 is concerned, I remember reading that Poles were particularly hated by German parachutists, since it was well known they never took prisoners. Now I do not know if all these stories about trigger-happy Poles are true or not, but considering what Germans did to Poland, I think such a behaviour would be quite understandable.

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Can this thread be closed; we have strayed away from Brian's initial question?

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Olve
A book of Szymon Datner entitled Zbrodnie Wehrmachtu na jeńcach wojennych w II wojnie światowej (Wehrmacht crimes against PoWs during WWII), Warsaw 1961, deals with the problem. It is in Polish but I cannot exclude there was a German edition in GDR. It testifies that eg. lynches on Allied airmen were inspired by highest levels.

George
It is not that easy. Allies were interested in German PoWs even if only as a source of information. Also, any such events could lead to repercussions against Allied PoWs held captive in Germany. Otherwise it is nonsense. What for to bother with a desk, if everyone was to be shot? It is illogical to say the least. And if there was a desk, there should be a paperwork, but there is none. And bodies cannot disappear, but there is no evidence of their existence. Here is the key to the problem.

Pelagonia(?)
This perfectly recalls the case of German paratroopers murdered at Monte Cassino described by Der Spiegel in 1980. The problem was that those paratroopers reappeared to testify they were not murdered and that they were well treated.

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Thank you Franek

Olve

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The answer of Franek is quite interesting, nd as in the Forum all the guys are trully smart people, we received them well

But really is a book published in Poland concerning germany, at a time where Poland was fast directly governed by the soviets or their men in , a reference ???

We would maybe prefer some document, with stamps nd so and ordering to murder the prisoners, as a matter of comparison we could start with the french campaign, is there any difference in the matter both sides treated the prisoners ?? there is a bad story at Le Paradis, but really a will at work to decimate the prisoners ???

We are all agreed in the fact that the germans are more aggressiv at that time...

Rémi

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Canadian soldiers saw these outrages happen, and were told by their officiers to ignore it. Like it or not that's what happened. Simply one little episode in a multi-million casualty war. You weren't there, but my friend and his buddies were, and saw it happen. What happens to bodies? Anything the winner wants to have happen to them.

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Remi
There is no reason to put in doubt Datner's research in this respect. It was a neutral subject at the time. The first executions happened in Poland in 1939, the most well known being massacre of Polish PoWs at Ciepielów. The question is if thise were soldiers' initiative or inspired by higher command. It is worth to note that most of the crimes were committed by Wehrmacht and not Waffen SS, which palyed minor role in the campaign.

George
My uncle was there, 11th assault engineering coy, but I cannot ask him anymore. This is not the point. The point is that there must be some evidence, as there is in multiple cases of other such incidents. As yet in this case we do not even have reputed time and place, not to mention any evidence.

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Escape and evasion, not execution...

I concur with Chris Goss.

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I also concur with the idea that this thread has outlived its usefulness.
George