Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Hi

Looking for any Ar196 losses in the Aegean on the 17-6-44. Three were claimed by 227 and 16 SAAF Sqns.

Regards

David

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

On 17.06.44 the 4./S.A.Gr. 126 reported at least one Ar 196 lost to enemy aircraft in the Ägean. Unfortunatlely, no further info available. There should be a Namentliche Verlustmeldung somewhere.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

I have a badly burned NVM for an Uffz Rudolf (unreadable) born 3 Jan 1921 in Madgeburg who was wounded in combat SE Peloponnes in combat with 9 Beaufighters and yes it was 4/126

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Dave Wadman

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Dave Wadman supplied this info:-

"Here are two to choose from which may fit the bill, both from SAGr. 126":

Ar 196 W.Nr623010, D1+AN s/d in combat with Beaufighters SE of the Peloponnese, Qu. 3752-23Ost
Uffz Paduch (F), Ltn Böcking (B) both safe.

Ar 196 W.Nr100505, D1+FE s/d in combat with Beaufighters SE of the Peloponnese, Qu. 3752-23Ost
Ogfr Schramm (F), Uffz Busse (B - LWIA)

David

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Guys

I have never before seen any WNr for the Ar 196 being quoted like this.

Can somone explain what batches these Ar 196 came from?
Since production is quoted as 505, I have losses in the range of 0007 - 0437 and 1001-1017 + two odd ones, 2520 and 2591

It does not leave much room for other batches... :confused:

Cheers
Stig

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Hi Stig

I have a Ar196A-5 with W.Nr 1960290 which was dam 35% in aircombat, does this apppear in your list ?

David

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

@David

The Ar 196 you mentioned D1+AN (5. Staffel) and D1+FE (19. Staffel) could`nt belong to 126. Aufklärungsgruppe with only 4 Staffel. How do you explain that?

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Hi byron

As I said in the post above I got the info from Dave Wadman, perhaps he could tell us more ?

Were did you get 5 and 19 Staffel from ?

Regards

David

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

The two WNr. for the losses given by David Wadman are confusing.
WNr. 623010 seems to be a Fokker production aircraft, but it does not fit the range given by Tom Willis here .

WNr. 100505 is even more of a mystery: 1960505 seems far too high. Another possibility is WNr. 1005, which could explain the E in D1+FE as a leftover from its SKZ (DH+ZE).

@David
WNr. 1960290 is not in my list! Do you have more details?

Hans

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

According "Luftwaffe Codes Marking & Units 1939-1945" by Harry Rosch

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Hi Guys

WNr 1960290 is not in my list either...
Perhaps I should say, before anyone thinks I have a perfect 196 list, that what I am looking at is a loss list in Avions!

As I said in my first e-mail, the quoted WNr looks very strange. Can either Dave Wadman himself, or perhaps Seaplanes make a direct comment please??

Cheers
Stig

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

I have the following W.Nr. blocks for the Arado Ar 196:
W.Nr. 2589 - 2592 4 Ar 196V-1 to V-4 prototypes by Arado, Brandenburg.
W.Nr. 2519 - 2521 3 Ar 196B-0 pre-production series, by Arado Brandenburg.
W.Nr. 2522 - 2524 3 Ar 196A-0 pre-production series, by Arado Brandenburg.
Please do not ask me why these numbers are lower than those for the prototypes.

W.Nr. 0011 - 0030 20 Ar 196A-1 by Arado Warnemünde.

W.Nr. 0031 was possibly not used or may have been tested to destruction before delivery, a so called Bruchzelle.

W.Nr. 0032 - 0131 100 Ar 196A-2 (including the last 16 converted to A-4 standard) by Arado Warnemünde.

W.Nr. 0133 - 0211 80 Ar 196A-3 by Arado Warnemünde.

W.Nr. 0212 - not known 228 Ar 196A-5 by Arado Warnemünde. At some point in this series the W.Nr. was given as i.e. 100342, this seems to have been used until the series was completed. This series also seems to include a number of aircraft actually delivered as A-3 versions.

W.Nr. 02301001 - 02301021 21 Ar 196A-3 by SNCASO, St. Nazaire.

W.Nr. 623007 - 623183 66 Ar 196A-5 by Fokker. The W.Nr. blocks in this series are not known to me.

Although this list has its shotcomings, it does explain the use of the various W.Nr. blocks.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Thank you for the explanation, Seaplanes.
So both of the losses supplied by David Wadman would fit the WNr. list after all. It would also mean there were significant gaps in the numbers assigned. Since the total production is a known variable there is a gap of 44 between 100384 and 100429 in my list (basically Avions plus some other sources). If 100505 is correct then there is also a gap of 67 between 100437 and 100505. Do you concur?
The same would apply to the Fokker production. An author friend of mine is working in Dutch archives investigating the Fokker factory during the war, among other things. I have asked him to notify me if he finds anything concrete on Arado production numbers.

Regards,

Hans

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

You are correct. In the 100--- series there is a gap at least between 100385 and 100428. According to the Stammkennzeichen series
100385 had CT+KE and 100428 CT+KH. Consequently two more aircraft are there somewhere. Only rarely were there breaks in the middle of a Stammkennzeichen series. I have histories for both 100385 and 100428. I hope your friend could find more about the Fokker W.Nr. I only have seven aircraft in this series and that is not much to build on. Most of the Fokker production was delivered in 1944, but even for the first six months of this year, very few aircraft is mentioned with Fokker c/n's. Part of the problem is that in many cases only the last three digits of the W.Nr. was reported, making it impossible to know if it was an Arado-built or Fokker built aircraft. I hope someone can assist in this discussion, which by the way has turned completely off the original topic.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Thanks Seaplanes

I was hoping you were going to come to our rescue!:)
Sorry to say I can't add much to your excellent listing.

One WNr stated in Avions is 0514 which, as the one used by the British as VM748 (ex AM92), was used by the MAEE. However Phil Butler (confirming the WNr and AM92 code) states it became VM761. Since this is not very important for our expanded topic, I believe the WNr is, so far, the highest noted for a Warnemünde built airframe.

Must say I was not aware that RLM also were using the black out system in their WNr layout supplied to various manufactures.

Finally Avions claim there is a loss of WNr 7 (which I took to be 0007) on 18.11.1943. With the current listing this is not possible. However since WNr 1007 was w/o on another date, could this be 623007 and also the reason why you Seaplanes have the Fokker range starting at 623007?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

The W.Nr. 0514, which should read 100514 in full, is the highest W.Nr. I have seen in the Arao Warnemünde series.

I also have the loss of W.Nr. 07 for 18.11.43. The unit for this aircraft was stated as Kdo.Flughafenbereich I/IV. Could this aircraft be an Arado 96 ?? I have other very good sources that does not mention this loss.

The reason for using 623007 for the Fokker series is that this is the lowest number I have recorded. The series commenced more likely with 623001.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Thanks Seaplanes

With regard to WNr 7 or 07 there are far to many possibillities if we start up an Ar 96 theory....:)

The stated unit is a strange one. Can't find it in Rosch's book. The meaning of Flughafen is pretty straightforward but in connection with bereich, which in my dictionary means both area and jurisdiction, makes little sense. Does a unit dealing with Airport Jurisdiction or perhaps Airport Security sound like a meaningful translation? :confused: Anyone?

Whatever it was I have to agree it doesn't sound like my first choice for using an Ar 196...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

The term Flughafenbereich means simply a number of airfields within a specific geographical area and under a common command.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

The Ar 96 theory seems to be a god choise. Flughafenbereich (Airfield Regional Command) I/IV did not have any seaplanebases! It was in Russia from 1942 to 44!
There are units missing in Rosche's book!!!

Junker

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

According to Avions 146 the loss of W.Nr. 007 took place in the "Baie de Kajild". I have not been able to find this exact location. According to Michael Holm Flughafen-Bereichs-Kommando 1/IV was based in Albania from 9.1943 to 12.1943 and administered the two seaplane bases at Kumbor (Montenegro) and Durres (Albania). Not a place for advanced training with the Ar 96 but also no known Ar 196 units based there.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Well we have a conflict with the area here. According to Kommandobehörden und Truppenteile der Luftwaffe 1 bis 10 the FHB 1/IV was stationed at Poltawa and Shitomir end 1943!! The aircraft wether a Ar 96 or 196 was not for training, but for liason within the FHB!

Junker

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Hello Jörn,
just adding my piece to the puzzle. At the moment I have no way of verifying if Holm is correct regarding Albania. You could very well be correct, and the training bit was purely based on the main role the Ar 96 was used for. Perhaps the German spelling of the location in the actual loss record will help us further narrow it down.
Regards,
Hans

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

I would love to see the exact location of this crash! Were does the information come from. I have tried, without luck to find it in the GQM-returns, both operational and schools???

Junker

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

According to my informations 100505 had the Vkz. D1+FN belonging to 4. Staffel!!!

Junker

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Apparently schools. I have only got the operational losses but Hümmelchen mentions it in his overview of school losses in "Die deutschen Seeflieger" on page 187. No place name here but he records the W.Nr. as 007.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

I do have Wnr. 386+387+388+389+390 the last one with Skz. CT+KJ. Then 428 with Skz. CT+KK!

Junker

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

I have been able to find the entry in school-losses but there is something "funny" about it.
First there is :
18.11.43 Kdo FHB. 1/IV E Bucht von Kanjld Absturtz inflg. Motorstörung Ju 88 Wnr. 474 100%. Crew unhurt!
same date wit repeat signs on unit and place Jägerbeschuss Ar 196 Wnr. 07 100%. F Uffz Rogge and B Ltn. Kellner both killed. Then entry written in hand, and hard to read:
Siehe Fl. Verbände von 26.11!
I have tried to find something in operationel losses without succes???


Junker

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Hi Guys.
I note your discussion.
I have a gun camera shot of an Ar 196 that is being shot down by S Whiting from 213 RAF Sqdn..It says in Dec 43 over the Med.
Do you guys have a date and which a/c and crew??.
It appears on p54 SAAF at War.
Thanks

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

It seems that the KTB of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu. for 2. December 1943 can clear this problem:

See-Aufkl.Gruppe 126 letter of 29.11.43:
Message of 18.11.43 from 4./S.A.Gr.126, Type of mission not known.
Location 12 km west of Budwar. Shot down over land. No information about air combat.
Ar 196A-3 W.Nr. 100430 100%. Crew: Uffz. Paul Rogge (F) and Lt. Friedrich Krukellner (B) both killed. Replacment aircraft and crew requested.

I do not know why I havent seen this before, it is just one of those things.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?
 

Well done!!
If I had looked closer at my listing over Ar 196 I would have found the same, but I did not look under date! At least it has been cleared up, that Wnr. 07 and place given in school-losses are wrong.

Junker