Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hi,

Would it be too generally to ask, how many losses of Ar-196 were there in the english Channel in 1941 before 24.05.1941 ???
One particuarly AR-196 was shot at during a rescue operation. Feldwebel Ewerings survived but his gunner was killed by the shots from a british ship. Ewerings were later picked up by U-47 (Günther Prien) and later sent to Hospital in Germany. He never flew again. He died in 1979 in Norway.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hi,

One machine from 5./KuFlGr 196 was s/d by P/O Graham of the 263 Sqn on 8/2/41.

Michal

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hi there Michal,

Thx for your very quick reply, but are there other losses of Ar-196 in the english channel between June and Dec.1940 ??

Jagdkommando

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

I have the following four Ar 196 losses in the Channel area from 1.1.41 to 31.5.41:

08.02.41 5./196 Ar 196A-4 W.Nr. 0129 6W+ON (BB+YC). 100% about 4 miles south of Dodman Point in Cornwall. Shot down by a Westland Whirlwind of No. 263 Sq. RAF piloted by P/O Graham. Apparently, he was himself shot down by return fire from the Arado. The German crew were:
Oblt. Adolf Berger (F + St.kap.) and Lt.z.See Hans-Erich Hirzt (B) both killed.

28.03.41 1./196 Ar 196A-2 W.Nr. 0060. 100% crashed due to bad weather en-route for Osteende. Ofw. Johannes Westphal (F) missing, Lt.z.See Karl-Adolf Schlitt (B) injured. I have noted the unit code for this aircraft as 6W+HN indicating 5./196 but three different sources claim this to be a 1./196 aircraft. Could someone clear this.

22.04.41 5./196 Ar 196A-3 W.Nr. 0167. 100% Hourtin. Crashed during air combat practice. Lt.z.See Wolrad Nicol (B) and Fw. Rudi Koch (F) both killed.

19.05.41 5./196 Ar 196A-4 W.Nr. 0120 6W+EN (GA+DT) 100% English Channel. Shot down by RAF Hurricanes. Lt.z.See Karl-Ernst Schmidt (B) and Ofw. Günther Nowak (F) both missing.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hi there Seaplanes,

What other kinds of german seaplanes had losses in the english channel from summer 1940-24.may 1941 ??

Jagdkommando

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hallo Seaplanes

Can't help you with 0060, but with regard to 0167 John Foreman in his book, Air War 1941-the turning point-part two claims this to have had the code 6W+ON

As usual I am just the messenger boy and can't vouch for any relevance of the statement :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

In july 1940 Westphal and Schlitt both belonged to 1/196! It is not uncommon to find that crew belonged to another staffel than the aircraft! I do have some losses were this is the case! Or that the crew or aircraft was recently transferred at the time of the loss! In this case Ar 196 from 5. Staffel and crew from 1. Staffel.

Junker

Junker

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Thanks to Stig and Jörn for the info.

Seaplanes

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Found a little more conserning 28.03.41.

Both Ar 196 from Scharnhorst did that day transfer from the ship! Due to bad weather they had to make emergency-landings!
Ar196 A T3+AK at Dunkirk. Crew and aircraft without damage!
Ar196 A 6W+HN lost at Ostende. Crew 1 injured and 1 missing!
This was reported by 1/196!!
Source. KTB FdL West.

Junker

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

One way of narrowing the date down is to look at the patrols of U-47

http://uboat.net/boats/u47.htm

As he was picked up by U-47 it must have been before she was lost on 7th March 1941

And BEFEORE 20 February, 1941

"U-47 left St. Nazaire (France) for her tenth patrol on 20 February, 1941. Just four days later they attacked convoy OB-290 and sank four ships for a total of 16,310 tons. The last radio message from U-47 was received in the morning of 7 March."

Need to find dates of her previous patrols


Patrol info


U-boatDepartureArrival 1.U-47 19 Aug, 1939 Kiel15 Sep, 1939 KielPatrol27 days2.U-47 8 Oct, 1939 Kiel17 Oct, 1939 WilhelmshavenPatrol9 days3.U-47 20 Oct, 1939 Wilhelmshaven21 Oct, 1939 Kiel 1 days4.U-47 16 Nov, 1939 Kiel18 Dec, 1939 KielPatrol32 days5.U-47 29 Feb, 1940 Kiel5 Mar, 1940 Wilhelmshaven 5 days6.U-47 11 Mar, 1940 Wilhelmshaven29 Mar, 1940 WilhelmshavenPatrol18 days7.U-47 3 Apr, 1940 Wilhelmshaven26 Apr, 1940 KielPatrol23 days8.U-47 3 Jun, 1940 Kiel6 Jul, 1940 KielPatrol33 days9.U-47 27 Aug, 1940 Kiel25 Sep, 1940 LorientPatrol29 days10.U-47 14 Oct, 1940 Lorient23 Oct, 1940 LorientPatrol9 days11.U-47 3 Nov, 1940 Lorient6 Dec, 1940 LorientPatrol33 days12.U-47 20 Feb, 1941 Lorient7 Mar, 1941 SunkPatrol15 days

I can't see how the crewman could have been picked up by U-47 in 1941 UNLESS between 6 Dec 1940 and 20 Feb 1941 she went on training sorties (if they did such a thing)
I suggest you look for a late 1940 Ar-196 loss (or prehaps another U-Boat?)

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Thx.for very interesting info about the U-47 and its patrols.
Yes, pilots were picked up by uboats. I have seen photodocumentation.

Anyway I should look for Ar-196 losses from late 1940, or evt.He60,as I'm a little uncertain what seaplane he flew. I will contact the pilot's brother in a short while and ask if he has any idea. He will turn 90 now in Febr. :-)

I'll be back soon, hopefully with more details. Thx again.

Jagdkommando

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hello.

Hope this helps?

20/07/1940. Heinkel He59. Seenotflug.Kdo.4. Near Alderney/Cap de la Hague. Col Otto Dreyer claimed to have been machine-gunned by a British bomber whilst attempting to rescue a downed Luftwaffe pilot. Dreyer & crew landed in dinghy next day on Alderney.

25/09/1940. Dornier Do18. WNr.0881. M2+EK. Shot down between Ushant & Guernsey by Blenhiem of 236 Sqn., piloted by P/ Russell. 4 crew missing - Oblt.zur see Steele, Oblt.Heuveldop, Uffz. Kahlfeld & Fw.Brasch.

Sept.1940 ? Heinkel He59. Seenotflug.Kdo.1. Shot down by 217Sqn.Anson. Aircraft abandoned and 4 NCOs discovered in dinghy near Channel Islands and captured. Crew details ?

06/11/1940. Bregeut Seaplane (In German use). SG+FM. Seenotflug.Kdo.1. Jersey. Aircraft burnt out 100% damaged and 3 crew rescued.

31/12/1940. Arado Ar196. 5./KuFlGr.196. WNr.0124. Alderney. Emergency landing due to bad weather. 100% damaged. Crew details?

Steve.

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

The Books ''U-boat Operations'' which has a brief outline of each U-boat patrol does not record U-47 picking up a Luftwaffe pilot, although other instances of aircrew rescues are shown for other boats throughout the War. A brief look through the loss lists show around 30 Ar196 incidents/losses in the period June 1940 to June 1941. The earlier ones only name officer losses, although the missing man is described as a gunner he may well have been the aircraft Observer and an officer, is there any idea of his name which would help,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hi,

The pilots name was Karl (Wilhelm Maria) Ewerings, born 23.04.1915.(Boxer)
The second person on board was called "technician" by his woman, and she recently told me that after the crash, he later had to remove his left kidney and the left renal pelvis after, what she said, beeing hit by something in the cockpit. She said that the other person went down with the plane. (Was probably hit by the shots from the british fighter).
I have right now spoken to Ewerings brother. He is 89 years old this month. He told me that he can recall his brother saying that the plane sunk between the islands Norderney and Texel. He also said that there were 2 persons on board, incl.the pilot, and he was very certain that his brother served with the Seenotdienst on one of the Northsee islands. He said further that the incident was either in 1940 or 1941. Nevertheless he was a little uncertain about what plane his brother flew, but if he would guess, he thought the Arado, he said.
Anyway, he never heard his brother saying anything about beeing picked up by a german uboat commander, but as he said . He never told me everything he experienced. The pilots wife, told me 15 years ago, and last week :-)) that her husband were picked up by the famous uboat commander Prien......
Maybe it was another famous uboatcommander, or evt.infamous......

I really hope to find out what kind of plane he flew, and the unit he served with.

Jagdkommando

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Looking through vol.1 of U-Boat Operations shows the following :-

12-9-1939 U-13 KL von Eichlain picked up a Luftwaffe crew fom N.Sea
29?-3-1940 U-30 KL Lemp while sailing back to Wilhelmhaven picked
a ditched Luft.crew (docked on the 30th.)
26-4-1940 U-17 KL Behrens picked a Luft.crew off Norway

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Lemp - Now there is an a name of a famous (infamous?) U-Boat Commander - I wonder if this is the incident and the name of the famous U-Boat commander has over time the memory has transferrred this incident to another famous U-boat commander

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

http://uboat.net/boats/u30.htm

"On 29 April 1940 in the North Sea the boat rescued four crew members from a crashed German Dornier Do 18 airplane of 2nd Staffel Küstenfliegergruppe 906. The boat was already inbound to port and reached Wilhelmshaven the next day."

Date is wrong in article should be 29 March 1940 - U-30 reached Wilhelmshaven 30 Mar, 1940 - She was on patrol 29 April 1940 but did not reach her home base until 4 May, 1940

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Thx Brian for your info, but I still think that the incident happened somewhere between the end of '40 or start of '41.

Jgadkommando

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hi members,

The latest updates says that Ofw.Karl Wilhelm Maria EWERINGS served in the Seenotdienst on one of the Northsee Islands, most likely "Norderney". As far as I have been told, there where stationed He-59 and He-60 on "Norderney" in 1940-41.

If not, could he had flown a Fw-58 "Weihe", used for Seenotdienst, but landbased on "Norderney" or somewhere within this area ??

Does anyone have a lossregister for Fw-58 "Weihe" between 1940-1941 in the english channel ??

Jagdkommando

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hi,

There are references in the Luft.QM Returns for approx. 20 Fw58 incidents between Sept.1940 t0 May 1941, most of these are Liasion aircraft operating with Bomber or Fighter units. One which may interest you is:-

4th.Oct.1940 - Fw 58 DK+GL 2815 of SeenotgruppeNorderney shot
down by own MarineFlak while on Kurierflug, crew
baled out one man injured (no name) near Vlissingen.

I could not find any other references to SeenotgruppeNorderney in the period, there was also damage to a Fw 58 of Seenotflugkdo 4 on the 16th.Sept.1940 at Wesermunde,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

hi Brian

is the DK+CL stkz correct ?

In the LEMB list it is DK+GL

Regards Peter van Gogh

Re: Any known Ar196 losses in the english channel in 1941 ??
 

Hi Peter,

It was difficult to read whether this was a 'C' or a 'G' due to the quality of the read-off. I went with 'C' however a 'smudge' could be the bottom cross of 'G' so I will change the previous post accordingly,

Thanks

Brian Bines