Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hi all, first of all I'm James, from Portsmouth UK :wave:

I'm doing some research into a pair of Hurricanes that crashed on Portsdown Hill overlooking Portsmouth on the 6th of November 1940. One was flown by Sergeant H.H. Adair of 213 squadron, who was shot down by Major Helmut Wick. Around 3.5 miles away to the East Flying Officer James Tillett of 238 Squadron was shot down, it is believed also by Wick but this is unconfirmed.

I'm planning to have a look at the records at the National Archives in Kew to see what I can glean from Operational Record Books and Combat Reports. I have had a look at the Portsmouth Evening News but nothing was reported at the time. I have however found a report from October 1979 when Sergeant Adair's plane was excavated by the Wealden Aviation Archaeological Society. The Hurricane was apparently found 12 feet down in the chalk, crumpled into a 4 foot section of metal. Sergeant Adair's remains were recovered, however the local coroner decided not to hold an inquest and Adair is still listed as Missing and on the Runneymede memorial. Tillett's body was recovered and he is buried in St Anns Cemetery in Gosport. Both are remembered by memorial stones near their respective crash sites.

Specificallu I would like to be able to investiage the suggestion that Tillett was shot down by Major Wick. In general I would like to be able to find out more about what happened over Portsdown Hill that day.

I just wondered if anyone might have any suggestions for sources I might not have thought about? Does anyone know what became of the Wealden Aviation Archaeology Group? And are there any Luftwaffe archives that might shed some light on what happened?

many thanks, and I'll be sure to post up anything that i find out :)

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

James

I have a considerable file on the loss of Adair, Tillett and co on 6 November and I am also in contact with the family of Hubert Adair.

There is rather too much information to post here, or to answer your specific questions. However, Helmut Wick and JG 2 were certainly involved in the action. I may have imagined this, but I think I wrote an article on the episode for the magazine "FlyPast" many years ago but no idea which year/issue. Probably circa 1980/81.

Andy

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

To save Andy the time, JG 2 claimed 6 Hurricanes and 3 Spitfires that afternoon; the reality was 4 Hurricanes. Wick was the main claimant (as well as Leie, Hahn & Schnell) so it is probable he got Tillet and Adair but not conclusive. I don't think the NA will add more than what Andy can give you so save yourself a journey!

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hi Andy and Chris, thanks for your replies.

The NA isnt too much of a hassle as I'm there quite frequently researching various things.

I've been researching Adair and Tillett mainly as I live very close to both crash sites and their memorial markers have always interested me, but I havent had a chance to look into them further until now. Now I'm hoping to write an article for a magazine that I've recently started contributing to, the idea being to provide an example of how readers can research something like this, what sources are out there, etc.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

James

Good luck with the project. However, it has been covered pretty comprehensively already.

Andy

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

...and I think Andy will agree that the 238 and especially 213 Sqn ORBs are pretty thin for this period

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Exactly so, Chris. I have copies of both for the early Nov period and they are pretty much devoid of any detail of substance. Pretty dire, actually.

For the interest of James, the memorials were funded and placed by a Mr Graham Alderson - although I am not sure if he is still around? James may also like to know that the family are currently planning a memorial service for Hubert Adair that can be attended by the new generation(s) of his family.

Andy

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

I get what you're saying Andy.

What I'm aiming for with this article really is an example of how someone can research local military history, starting from the memorial stones and going through what sources are out there, to build up a bigger picture. It might well be that I use another example.

Adair's memorial has always interested me as hardly any local people know that it is there. I remember the local paper running a story almost 10 years ago, when the Pub next to it erected an advertising sign that completely obscured the memorial. Suffice to say they quickly took it down again.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hello James,

I've a question about: "Sergeant Adair's remains were recovered, however the local coroner decided not to hold an inquest and Adair is still listed as Missing and on the Runneymede memorial."

If the body was found, why no burial or cremation?

Regards,

Bart

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

The Coroner ordered that the remains were cremated and disposed of at Portchester Crematorium. This was duly carried out. Sgt Adair was not identified and he remains "missing" to this day. However, there can be little doubt that the remains were indeed those of Sgt Adair.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hello Andy,

Do you know if this was regular practice of British coroners?

It really amazes me - my father, who was a soldier in the Second World War and in the Indonesian War of Independance, told me that on occasions where members of his unit were killed and only unrecognizable body parts could be recovered, these parts were buried in as many graves as men were killed - to save the families of the dead the ultimate horror of them being listed as 'missing'.

Regards,

Bart

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Bart

All I can tell you in this case is that when the remains were discovered in 1979 the Coroner ordered this particular course of action. Unfortunately, no hard evidence of identification was found (no aircraft serial or means to identify the pilot) and I think this is what led the Coroner into taking this action. In effect, the remains were quietly disposed of without ceremony. In my view, the remains should have been buried with full military honours as an unknown RAF pilot. This was the course of action taken around the same time with another pilot who was first buried as "Unknown" but subsequently identified as Sgt Egan of 501 Squadron. Another unknown pilot buried in similar circumstances is probably Plt Off Benzie of 242 Squadron lost on 7 September and buried as "Unknown" at Brookwood. In the case of the pilot from Portsdown Hill, if subsequent evidence now came to light proving the remains to have been those of Sgt Adair no chance now exists to give him a named headstone and known grave since his remains were scattered and no grave or last resting place in a marked plot exists.

Andy

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hallo Andy,

You're absolutely right: the remains should have been buried with full military honours as an unknown RAF pilot. And this Coroner should have been brought for a court for destroying evidence.

Is all the circumstancial evidence you and others have collected not enough for the CWGC to have a CWGC stone installed in the Portchester Crematorium, with a text as 'Sgt Adair, believed to have been cremated at this location'?

Regards,

Bart

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

I concur. What is the name of the prick?
PS Andy, how about another Hurricane, we discussed previously off board?

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Unfortunately, HM Coroner is a very powerful officer of the law in the UK. Obviously we do not know what MOD advice, if any, may have led to his decision in this specific case. Clearly, it is unfortunate but not a lot can be done nearly thirty years later!

Franek, contact me off board re the other Hurricane.

Andy

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Well, I am not a British subject so I do not care. And if the pilot in question was actually not a British subject, and your identification was wrong? Some idiot destroyed the evidence and let me name it.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Franek

The pilot in question was a British subject. That said, it is irrelevant what nationality he was or on which side he fought.

Andy

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Has there been any recent contact with the CWGC about this subject? I noticed that the CWGC changes entries in the database if new evidence emerges.

Regards,

Bart

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Until relatively recently it was up to the CWGC to take responsibility for the naming/re-naming/re-identification of casualties already within their care - ie in CWGC graves or plots. Thus, the CWGC could decide to change headstones based upon evidence submitted to them, eg the case of Flt Lt "Rusty" Rushmer of 603 Squadron, killed during 1940 and previously buried as an unknown airman but now named by the CWGC. The MOD were only responsible for the identification/naming of newly found casualties or, in some cases, declaring that they should be buried as "Unknown". Now, the procedure has changed and responsibility for identification of casualties already in CWGC care has been placed with the MOD. This was set out in a letter to me last week from Air Chief Marshal Sir Peter Squire of the CWGC. In the case of the Portsdown Hill casualty the remains were dispersed and thus there is no place of commemoration by name of Sgt Adair in any event. His only commemoration by the CWGC is at Runnymede.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hello Andy,

What's the fastest and least bureaucratic way to contact the correct person with the MOD for missing and unknown soldiers issues?

Regards,

Bart

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hope Andy doesn't mind me jumping in here.

Depends on your query/issue. General questions should go to the AHB who have records for all Alllied Air Forces casualties. They can have access to the Casualty Files but these are not for general release. They are about to move from RAF Bentley Priory to RAF Northolt so are just dealing with urgent enquiries.

There is an RAF Casualty Branch based (for the moment) at RAF Innsworth-they are currently dealing with in the region of 40 (!) identifications/burials of British military personnel. This office grants licences for digging up crashed aircaft

Hope this helps

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hello Chris,

I want to contact the MOD because of two Royal Marines, who went missing on a ground patrol, spring 1945. One of them is buried as a 'unknown RM' in the Netherlands. It's my opinion that a simple check on their records would reveal which one of the two is the one that is buried over here.

Regards,

Bart

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

I think I am right in saying that you would need the Naval Historical Branch for that.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Thanks Andy,

I'll contact that office.

Regards,

Bart

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

...but it would eventually come back to the people at Innsworth as they are the Jt Casualty and Compassionate Centre so I suggest you write to them.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hello Chris,

Any idea if the Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre can be reached by e-mail? I don't have a fax and to make a international telephone call in a language that's not my own about this issue can be a costly thing.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Speak to Sue on 0044 1452 712612 Ext 6303. She will phone you back and direct you query to the right area

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Thanks, Chris,

That's on the agenda for monday morning.

Regards,

Bart

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

there's even a Photograpth taken of the dogfight by Alexander Mckee. nov 5th-6th.40.showin Adairs Hurricane Going down.
lou

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Indeed so!

As an update, and since the thread has re-surfaced, I have recently heard again from the Adair family who are hoping to organise a memorial service for Hubert near the spot at some stage in the relatively near future.

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Hi
Andy.
just bought your book,Findiing the Few..
great book.
Sharon

Re: Portsdown Hill, 6 November 1940
 

Thank you.

Hope that you find the chapter on Sgt Adair tells you what you want to know.