Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hello!

I have a photo of a Ju 52 from Africa. on the tail it has the following markings:

D 4
J

What does that mean?

Thanks in advance

Christian

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

This might be of some help Christian.

B2 J

B - group code letter
2 - 2cd squadron
J - 10th a/c

This type of code is said to be used as units were formed and dissolved at short notice for various operations.

ref. S/S #1186 Junkers Ju 52 In Action

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

No, the letter is for the C/O's name: B = Beckmann (KGr.zbV. 500).
D is yet unknown - will become IV./TG 3 in April 1943.

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Chris

You must have misunderstood the German Ju 52 tactical codings. According to Karl Kössler they had nothing to do with the name of any commander what so ever.

Since I am not fluent in German and has not read his booklet from cover to cover, I read that the letter B stood for KGr.z.b.V.500 and not who was its commander.

The letter D stood for IV./KG.z.b.V.1
A quick look through the booklet seems to confirm Kutscha's points that the number indicated the Staffel within the unit, ie the 4th St within the IV Gruppe and the letter below was the aeroplanes number in the unit, ie in this case xx+Jx as its fuselage code.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Interesting.
I was quoting from Barry Rosch's book. Is it outdated and is there a new list somewhere?

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Having the same book and reading german there seems to be a connection with the letter at least in some cases!
P was Kgr zbv 400 under command of Major Pfister!
W was Kgr zbv Wittstock unit was created at Wittstock.
B was Kgr zbv 500 under command of Major Beckmann
K was Einsatzgrp. Kupschuss under command of Major Kupschuss later Kgr zbv Frankfurt!

Junker

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hmmmmm

Sounds like I am wrong...
So what you are saying is that every time a unit changed its commander they painted a new tactical code?? In that case they sure had better not to chose commanders who had the same first letter in their last name...
Sounds really weird to me....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

You can find some more info about the use of these "tactical codes" on this site (in german) :
http://www.luftarchiv.de/

On the menu on the left choose "Luftfahrtindustrie" , then choose "1939-1945" right below "Motorflugzeuge".

So in the case of Christian's picture :
D = Name of the Commander of the new or temporary formed unit
4 = 4th Staffel
J = aircraft letter within the 4th Staffel

Hope this might help,
Rudi.

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi,

Stig is correct, the D stands for IV./KGzbV 1, 4 the fourth staffel and J the individual aircraft letter.

ie aircraft 'J' in 16/KGzbV 1

Cheers

GrahamB

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

All of us could be right... There are a few gaps in the C/Os of this unit.
But Stig's remark makes sense: did they change their tactical codes each time they had a new C/O?

BTW, does anyone know which Ju 52 unit had a white dot as tactical code on the fin?

Chris

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Afternoon all...

Ken Merrick, in his "Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1933-45, volume 2" says:

"The markings were applied to the rudder and consisted of a pair comprising a letter and number (or an 'S' if a Stab aircraft) with a single letter below the pair. The first letter identified the parent unit, the number identified the temporary Staffel that had been created within that unit, while the last letter was that of the individual aircraft letter within that formation."

Examples with images shown are:

Ju52/3m coded 4V+AT with T1 and J on the rudder
T = KG.z.b.V.172
1 = 1.Staffel
J = aircraft ID letter within IV./TG 3


Ju52 with D3 and F on the rudder
D = IV./KG.z.b.V 1
3 = 3.Staffel
F = aircraft letter

Merrick goes on to say:

"As always, there were oddities amongst the system. KG.z.b.V 1 was recorded using two letters in a white circle near the top of the fin, the first was the aircraft letter, the second was the code for the Gruppe. At other times, some units used the same system within their own structure as a quick recognition guide."

Still not found out what a white dot signified...

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Peter,
To be honnest, I'm not quite sure it is a dot. I've blown the photograph up to the limit, the Ju 52 being in the background.
Photograph taken at Pleskau-Süd (Plskov) during the Demyansk airlift operations.

Chris

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Thank you all for some most interesting reading!!!
It is always interesting to learn something new!
It seems to me that everytime something new is discovered, something new pops up!

Have any of you seen this triangular shape on a Ju 52 fuselage?

Best wishes

Christian

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

IV./K.G.z.b.V. 1 was a part of K.G.z.b.V. "S" during the African supply operations December 1942 to May 1943, together with K.Gr.z.b.V. 600.
The unit codes and Tactical codes of IV./K.G.z.b.V. 1 were:
Stab unit code 1Z+ -F (this because the Savoia-Staffel carried the unit code 1Z+ -D). Tactical code D - S + individual letter.
13. Staffel unit code 1Z+ -X, tactical code D 1 + individual letter.
14. Staffel unit code 1Z+ -Y, tactical code D 2 + individual letter.
15. Staffel unit code 1Z+ -Z, tactical code D 3 + individual letter.
16. Staffel unit code 1Z+ -Q, tactical code D 4 + individual letter.
On April 6, 1943, the Ju 52 aircraft of 16./K.G.z.b.V. 1 were the following:
1Z+AQ W.Nr. 7297 (St.kz. DG+SK)
1Z+BQ W.Nr. 5342 (St.kz. VD+XB)
1Z+CQ W.Nr. 3203 (St.kz. PD+KM)
1Z+DQ W.Nr. 5118 (St.kz. BD+PP)
1Z+EQ W.Nr. 6038 (St.kz. GT+AD)
1Z+FQ W.Nr. 6322 (St.kz. TE+HY)
1Z+GQ W.Nr. 3301 (St.kz. KI+LJ)
1Z+HQ W.Nr. 7299 (St.kz. DG+SM)
1Z+IQ W.Nr. 6851 (St.kz. VK+AV)
1Z+JQ W.Nr. 5642 (St.kz. CR+NO)
1Z+LQ W.Nr. 5454 (St.kz. KJ+AH)
1Z+MQ W.Nr. 6682 (St.kz. CK+BA)
Unfortunately, the source did not give the tactical codes, but the individual aircraft letters of the unit code should match that of the tactical code. Please remember that units suffered heavy losses during these opetrations. Consequently, several aircraft could have carried the same unit and tactical codes over time.

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

@ CJE - does look like a dot... still not found anything just yet...

@ Christian - we had a thread over on the LEMB about these triangle markings on Ju52's and Fw58's with the general consensus being that they were glider towing markings.

@ Seaplanes - thanks for the listing. There are also instances within the pages of the two volume "Transporter" by Martin Pegg [Classic, 2006] where the fuselage codes didn't match the three character rudder codes. The author says that the rudder markings superseded the fuselage codes. All very confusing!

Cheers,

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi,

I think that the so called 'dot' on the Ju52 tail is actually the 'pig -in-a-star' emblem used by KGzbV 172 (later IV.TG 3) - white for 1/172 or 13/TG 3; red for 2/172 6r 14/TG 3; yellow for 3/712 or 15/TG 3 and finally blue for 4/172 or 16/TG 3. It was seen on the forward fuselage and/or tail units.

Cheers

GrahamB

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

...thanks for that Graham... can you, or any other member for that matter, point me towards any published images of this emblem please?

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi Peter,

I've collated a few of these (about 20 photos) scattered throughout various books and I'll send a list as soon as I can. There are some in the Transporter volumes, the Airdoc book, Squadron Signal 'In Action', Luftwaffe im Focus 9, and those by Feist, Kossler, Nowarra, Jessen and Barry Rosch's book, , etc etc.

Cheers,

Graham

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi Christien and Peter,

just to add - there were dots, or rather, discs on some Ju52s. There is a nice photo in Transporter Vol.1 page 92 of a KGzbV 1 aircraft with a pale (yellow or white?) disc. Some aircraft of III./KGzbV 1 carried the last two letters of their code (eg. 'EU', 'EV') on a pale disc so it is possible that the example mentioned above is also III Gruppe member, but possibly a staff flight or section leader?

Cheers

GrahamB

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

I believe it's not a dot, but rather a multi-point white star - but not necessarily the emblem Graham referred to.

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

...thanks for the additional pointers & info Graham & Dénes... :)

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

I posted a low-res pic, but on the hi-res pic it clearly is a disk and not a star (I know the one you think of). The code is illegible apart from the "A" and the "4" on the rudder which seems to indicate the 4. Staffel.

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi Seaplanes

You give a Ju52 the stkz KJ+AH whe have that already in the LEMB list
as a Ju86. Is Your data 100% correct ?

Regards
Peter van Gogh

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi Christian

I have a similar picture (ex-eBay auction long gone) and also have been puzzled as to which unit it belongs, although it does have 3U+MT which is ussually associated with ZG 26. Could this Ju 52 be a unit staff transport?

Regards

Chris

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi Chris...

3U+MT is indeed listed as being with ZG 26 in "Luftwaffe Codes, Markings and Units 1939-45" and with regards triangle markings, see my answer/theory in post #15... unless somebody has the definitive answer :)

cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Thanks Peter. That was quick!

OK, I see your #15 and, I must be blind......

Cheers

Chris

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

...my pleasure Chris... my theory is that the triangle markings were used by target tugs... unless somebody knows otherwise :)

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi again,

two more 'spot' or disc-bearing Ju52s to add to the pot:

1. there is 'P 4 C' (the earlier KGrzbV 400 wknr 6129, not the TG 1 wknr 3367) on page 62 of Piekaliewicz's 'Die Ju 52 im Zweiten Welkreig' with pale disc on the fin. Interestingly this aircraft has the Schleppsporn 6000 rigid glider tow bar.

2. aircaft 'N ? ?' with disc on rudder, being straffed in North Africa, page 88 of same book (aircraft said to be wknr 3314). Of KGrzbV 172 (with KGzbV 'Naples' tactical code).

Cheers

GrahamB

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

This is what I actually meant.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6...ildenesjt6.jpg

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hello Dénes

These two photos have a similar number style, sems unlikely that they are from different units to your picture.
Source: 1) ex-eBay closed auction 2) http://www.luchtoorlog.be/ju52_f.htm
Warm regards

Chris

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Could You try ID additional Ju52 (photo made: 10 March 1945)?

http://starakarta.karta.org.pl/foto/...evs/prev27.jpg

Vertical rudder - tail code: I5L (or ISL) ?
and side code: + L

Is it TG1 Staffel 5 from Tutow ?????

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi all,

just discovered this older thread but anyway thought it could need a bit of update:

post #1 to #9:

The tactical tail markings were introduced in late 1941 to allow easy identification of units and aircraft in the field. Many transport aircraft were switching units, new or replacement aircraft arrived constantly. Units were disbanded and reformed etc.
Instead of time consuming repainting of codes and unit markings a simple three digit code was painted in yellow (exception = white) on the vertical tailrudder of the planes:

- The first digit was usually a large letter. This was assigned to the unit(group or squadron) and oftenly related to the unit commander's second name. Examples are given by ju55dk in post #6.
Some more were E for Erdmann (KGrzbV102), Z (III./KGzbV1/KGrzbV600) for Zeidler, H for Hornung (KGrzbV106)and Heyer (KGrzbV400), S for Schlosser (KGrzbV300), S1 for Schneidenberger (Transportstaffel II./Fliegerkorps) and L for von Linsingen (TGrHe111).
Sometimes the letters were related to the locations were the units were formed i. e. W for KGrzbVWittstock or N for KGrzbV S7, formed in Naples.
In some cases no concrete relevance of the letters is known i. e. A for I./KGzbV1, D for IV./KGzbV1, N for I./KGzbV172, T for KGrzbV800, S for LTS See, W1 for Seetransportstaffel 1 and X, Y for KGrzbV323.
Finally – as always – there were exceptions were large arabic or roman numbers were used instead of the letters i. e. II./KGzbV1 (no unit letter just large ‘real’ squadron number) and TG4 (roman numbers).
The letter H was used by both units (see above) at the same time (march 1943), the letter P switched units two times (KGrzbV400/KGrzbV25/III./KGzbV1), N and Z switched units one time (see above). Reasons for switching were usually disbandment or reforming of units.

- The second digit was a squadronrelated number or letter. Usually the letter S stood for stab aircraft, numbers 1 to 4 for the four operational staffeln within the group.
An exception was i.e. II./TG4 which used the ‘real’ staffelnumbers 5 to 8 and II./KGzbV1 – see above.

- The third digit was simply the individual aircraft letter, exceptionally i. e. II./KGzbV1 used the number (digit) of the letter within the alphabet (A = 1).

Most units received it’s tailcodes when they started service in the MTO.

With the reorganisation of transport units on 1st of may 1943 the tactical (MTO) tailcodes began slowly losing their importance but nevertheless were in use by some units until the end of the war.

So if you see a pic of transport aircraft displaying fuselage codes and tailcodes always check the latter first to identify the unit.
Of course there are exceptions too, i. e. aircraft with replacement rudders…

Post #11:
T1J (‘El Haouaria’) was the J aircraft (8T+JH) of 1./KGrzbV800 (5./TG2 on 1st of may 1943) but still displayed the 4V+AT codes and the white ‘lucky pig in an eighth edged star’ emblem of 1./KGzbV172 (13./TG3 from 1st of may 1943), the squadron it served with previously. A typical example for identification via the tailcodes, not the rest of the markings. Some sources say the T1J rudder was a replacement one and therefore the unit was 1./KGzbV172 (lesser likely in my opinion, tailcodes were renewed fast).

Post #10 to #30:
(White) disc markings on transport aircraft had various meanings.
Some units simply used such for unit identification i. e. III./KGzbV1 (earliest april 1943, with small a/c and staffelletter,) KGrzbV50, KGrzbV900 (served at Demyansk) and II./TG3.
Others are known to have used such as tactical markings i. e. for Stab aircraft ( i. e. KGrzbV S7, KGrzbV323) or glider towing aircraft (i. e. LLG1, I.and II./KGzbV1, the latter served at Demyansk).

GrahamB mentioned (post #28) P4C, which served with 4./KGrzbV400 when the pic was taken.
The Ju52/3mg4e (Wnr. 6129) was coded H4+LU (10./LLG1) and was drawn to form KGrzbV400 in late 1941. The white dot was a glider towing marking.

The pic of NDot(A?) is displayed in Transporter Vol. 1 on page 93 too. Provided the given date (november 1942) is correct it couldn’t have been I./KGzbV172. The unit served at Stalingrad at this time and (contrary to the pic comment) except spring 1941 (april-june, balkan-crete campaign) never saw service in the MTO prior to 27th of april 1943 when it was assigned tactical tailcode N (not used by another unit at this time). The letter N therefore stood for KGrzbV S7 (formed at Naples) in late 1942 and the white dot most likely was a stab marking.

Post #31:
ISL was still coded 8A+LJ and originally served with Seetransportstaffel 1 in the Aegean sea.
This unit used the roman number I and the small letter S (not stab, probably for 'See') with the individual aircraft letter as tactical tailcode (from about august? 1943 onwards).
The pic was taken at Kolberg in march 1945 when the bird was remounted on wheels and served with 3./TG1.

Hope this info is useful even when I am late.

ATB
Armin

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

So, using this as a guide, tail markings "H2K" would be 2./TG4, 11th aircraft?

I just got a 1943 dated boneyard photo that has this airplane, a Ju88 and an Fw190A-4 Jabo from SKG10 and a few other aircraft wrecks visible. Just trying to nail down location, although I think it's probably Gabes West.

Thanks!

Jon

Re: Ju 52 markings on the tail??
 

Hi Jon,


tactical (MTO) tailcode H2K belonged to 2./KGrzbV106.
The matching unitcode would have been 4V+KP, the aircraft letter K in red staffelcolour.

A pic of this aircraft is known to me, location Sidi Ahmed/Tunisia.



Regards
Armin