Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

I was reading Franz Kurowski's book "Luftwaffe Aces" & came across yet another nickmame the Germans used for the IL2 Sturmovik: 'the butchers'; sounds like a pretty cool yet scary nickname but I was wondering if that expression is less due to the casualties the IL inflicted on the German Army & more related to the German expression for slaughterhouse work, "schlacht", which of course, is also the term used to refer to German ground attack units? Well what say the experts? Or is this just a figment of Kurowski's overheated prose?

NickM

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

IMHO it is just a bad translation of the more general term "ground attacker".

Jäger
Bomber
Schlächter

etc

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

the german word for butcher is "metzger " or even schlachter (not schlächter)
but the groundattack planes (schlachtflugzeuge ) were called ( nicknamed ) "schlächter" , from the word "schlacht".
the german word " schlacht " translate means " battle " .
maybe a bit hard to understand for non german speaker. :)

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

Ruy & Boandgramer:

thank you both! Boandgramer, you're quite right about my being a non german speaker; I only thought I KNEW the meaning of 'schlacht' from that book on FW190s the National Air & Space Museum published (it's called "Focke Wulf FW 190: Workhorse of the Luftwaffe', in case you're interested!); the expression 'slaughter' was the definition they gave to schlacht;

thanks again!

nickm

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

Boandlgramer wrote : "maybe an bit hard to understand for non german speaker" --- he is right with his words because his explanation of the word "Schlächter" isn't correct in German linguistic usage. "Schlächter" doesn't came from "Schlacht" (battle) but from the verb "schlachten". The "Schlachter" is the traditional profession, the "Schlächter" is in the German linguistic usage an person like psychopatic killer, who kills a lot of poeple in a short time with atrocius methods. So the word "slaughter" describe the word "Schlächter" much better than "battle".

One of the problems of non German speaker is the usage of one word in many meanings. It's necessary to know the complete kontext. So it's possible that one soldier understood the "Schlächter" as an possibility to express the word "Schlachtflugzeug" and the other person beside meant the "killer in the air", "murdered" his comrades without the chance of resistance.

German is an wonderful language ... and a hard too.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

oh mann,
rasmussen.
das wort schlächter in verbindung mit einem flugzeug ist gewiss als abkürzung für schlachtflugzeuge verwendet worden.
so wurden eben diese flugzeuge genannt, die sich unmittelbar in das schlachtgeschehen einmischten. damit sind aber nicht bombenflugzeuge gemeint.

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

On 24 November 1941, the German fighter pilot Lt. Hermann Graf of 9./JG 52 made the following note in his diary:

"Dabei handelte es sich um meine erste IL 2, also um einen von den gefährlichen Apparaten, zu denen die Landser 'Schlächter' sagen."

I think both Boandlgramer and Rasmussen may be right, but in this context, I think Rasmussen's interpretation is right. It would make no sense if Graf had meant to say:

"This was one of the dangerous aircraft which the German ground troops call 'ground-attack aircraft'."

I think it makes more sense to assume that what Graf meant was something like this:

"This was one of the dangerous aircraft which the German ground troops call 'butchers'."

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

Oh mann,

boandlgramer.

"gewiß" --- dabei gewesen??? Gewiß. Was aber am falschen Wortstamm auch nichts ändert.

(an German reaction on a german answer - I think uninteresting for our English speaking friends ;-) )

Thanks Christer, an wonderful example for that what I meant.

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

A (semi) off-topic question: why was the Fw 190 called in English 'The Butcher Bird' (see, for example, subtitle of Green and Swanborough's book)? I think the name originated for similar reasons...

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

Denes:

As I recall, the nickname for the FW, "Butcher Bird" is referring to a small (probably smaller than a dove), compact, aggressive carnivorous bird known as a Shrike; it has been known to attack & overpower rodents, small birds, snakes, lizards, frogs, etc...it has this charming little habit of impaling it's prey on thorns and sharp twigs; the 'hanging meat' image is what spawned the nickname 'butcher bird'; so no doubt someone felt the FW was a great example of being a potent weapon in a small compact package & no doubt thought naming after the Shrike was appropriate;


NickM

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

freilich, ich war genauso dabei wie du.alter frontkämpfer ;)

noch eine kleine anmerkung zum "schwarzen tod".
jan boger beschreibt da in seinem buch spezial/elite einheiten(einige nahmen am WW2 teil )
da wird die sowjetische marineinfanterie, die " Morskaya Pyechota " von den deutschen landsern " schwarzer tod " genannt.

evtl. wurden ja noch mehr "schwarzer tod" genannt. wer weiss , wer weiss.

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

Rasmussen,
i guess , you know some wehrmachts veterans.
ask them about the " black death " or about some other "wellknown" nicknames.
(if you have the time, of course)
you get firsthand opinions .

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

Isn't the whole Fw 190 Butcher Bird related to the (semi-)official Würger name, and unrelated to the term Schlachtflugzeug?

Würger literally being a shrike or butcher bird.

Of course it is likely that the later use as a Schlachtflugzeug may have influenced the choice towards Butcher Bird.

BTW, did RAF pilots ever call the Fw 190 Butcher bird, or is this purely post war translating?

(which reminds me of the age old "Fokkers flying Messerschmitts" joke).

But more interesting, Boandl, in your conversations with Wehrmacht veterans, did they indeed sneer at so many of these nicknames? To be honest, I have been proclaiming in the past that most of the nicknames that were attributed by the allies as being german, did not feel right. Personally I've yet find most if not all of them in reading.

Although I might understand if some of these attributed names are simply misunderstood.

Schlachtflugzeug (already discussed)

If I remmber correctly you germans use Pest in a similar way as we do in Dutch: Pestflugzeug!

Although I hate assumptions, it sounds much more likely that a couple of Landser sitting in a trench would call Sturmoviks a Plague or Pestflugzeugen, instead of the more poetic Black Death. Same source - The Plague - but very different meaning.

I find a similar approach for the famous Fork Tail Devil also more likely - Verteufeltes Flugzeug or Teufelsflugzeug (don't know if these are correct German). Perhaps some Landser did not use Doppelrumpf, but Gabelschwanz - Das verteufelte Flugzeug mit dem Gabelschwanz?

Apologies if I am making big german writing and spelling errors, but at school I was too lazy to learn my idiom and grammer (oh, I hated those rows).

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

roy, to answer your question.
the replys of the veterans were a disappointment ( at least for me)
i was hoping to find some nicknames ,maybe some unknown, or at least some "wellknown" confirmed .
but nothing.

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

I'd always understood that it was a translation of the name that Focke-Wulf gave the aircraft: "Wuerger."

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

However you argue it, German and English are related languages and the root word "Schlacht" relates to "slaughter." In English, a slaughterman kills animals, a butcher cuts up the meat from there on. Obviously the two trades overlapped.

The analogies between slaughter for food and battle are obvious - sharp implements and blood everywhere for a start - so trying to separate the different uses of the word is pretty hopeless. If you read about ground fighting, a lot of writers use the term "the butcher's bill" to describe the casualty rate.

BTW: remember that the title of Kurt Vonnegut's novel "Slaughterhouse 5" referred to his time as a PoW whose "prison camp" was "Schlachthof 5" in Dresden.

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

schlachtgeschwader = slaughter-squadrons :D


die Schlacht von Waterloo = the Battle of Waterloo
of course it was the "slaughter of waterloo "

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

how is that bird called in english ?

http://www.nabu-gross-zimmern.de/nat...el/wuerger.jpg

Re: Yet ANOTHER German nickname for the IL 2...
 

Although I am not a linguist, German and Dutch are pretty similar, more so than English and German.

Schlacht may be more closely related to Schlagen or to hit (we in dutch have slaan and slag, to hit and strike - the latter corresponds perfectly with ground attack or groundstrike).

Not field of slaughter, but field of battle (hitting field).

Even the English Slain may be more closely related to hitting than slaying.

hitting, striking, slaying or slaughtering all the same root

Re: Butcher Bird
 

Boandlgramer :

You are right. The "butcher bird", which is what Wurger means, is called the Shrike in England and America. They are called this because they catch their prey, usually large insects or the occasional mouse, and "store" it by stricking on a thorn bush or locust tree. Hence, the name butcher.