Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Trying to find info on the loss of 3 Hurricanes on 20 May 1940 in the Arras area. Pilots included new CO. Possible link to Werner Machold of JG2. Can anyone confirm or provide any info? KC

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hi,

all three (P3426, ?,?) were lost in combat with II/JG3 at 15.30. One (P2555) was lost to Bf110s at 10.15.

Regards

Robert

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

This is what I know:

Type: Hawker Hurricane Mk I
Serial number: ?, VY-?
Operation: ?
Lost: 20/05/1940
Pilot Officer (Pilot) Roger W. Burton, RAFVR 78440, 85 Sqdn., age 26, 20/05/1940, Querrieu British Cemetery, F

back up

Type: Hawker Hurricane Mk I
Serial number: ?, VY-?
Operation: ?
Lost: 20/05/1940
Pilot Officer (Pilot) Richard W. Shrewsbury, RAF 41874, 85 Sqdn., age 19, 20/05/1940, Arras Communal Cemetery, F

Regards,

Bart

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hurricane. Shot down by Bf109s while ground strafing enemy columns east of Arras 3.30 p.m. Possibly one of those claimed by Hptmn von Selle of Stab II./JG3. Squadron Leader M. F. Peacock killed. Aircraft a write-off.

Hurricane. Shot down by Bf109s while ground strafing enemy columns east of Arras and crashed near Querrieu, north-east of Amiens, 3.30 p.m. Possibly that claimed by Lt von Werra of Stab II./JG3. Pilot Officer R. W. Burton killed. Aircraft a write-off.

Hurricane P3426. Shot down by Bf109s while ground strafing enemy columns east of Arras 3.30 p.m. Possibly that claimed by Lt Heymann of 4./JG3. Pilot Officer R. W. Shrewsbury killed. Aircraft a write-off.

Source: The Battle of France Then & Now

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hi,
You will need confirmation , but I have -
Peacock with L2141.
Shrewsbury with P3426.
Burton with P2427.
Howes with P2555.
Alex

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Alex,

Thanks, but you appear to be quoting the serials provided by Heinrich Weiss for Brian Cull’s work? I assure you that I did consult this during preparation of The Battle of France Then & Now but was unable to find corroboration for these details in surviving records.

The Squadron ORB is singularly unhelpful but according to Halley’s RAF serials L2141 was never allocated to No. 85 Squadron and was finally ‘struck off charge’ by No. 601 Squadron on July 3, 1940. While P2427 was a Miles Magister that served in a variety of EFTS until its eventual sale in May 1949 though I note that Norman Franks has this listed in his FC Losses as P2437 - another Miles Magister lost by 16 EFTS on March 25, 1942.

P3426 was, at least, a Tangmere Station Flight Hurricane ‘presumed lost in France in May 1940’ so could well be correct but I have no hard evidence of the fact. The only one of the four actually known to have been allocated to No. 85 Squadron was P2555 the records for which merely state ‘Lost in France May 1940’.

As always, the danger in simply duplicating such doubtful information is that it may eventually become enshrined as fact. So I would be most grateful to hear from anyone who can provide confirmation of these serials.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Peter,

The CWGC has this on S/L Peacock:

Flight Lieutenant (Pilot) Michael F. Peacock, RAF 90124, 601 Sqdn., DFC, age 28, 20/05/1940, Arras Communal Cemetery, F

As the initials and the date of death are the same, I guess this is the same man as the S/L you mentioned. Have you any idea why the CWGC has him listed as member of 601 Sqdn.?

Regards,

Bart

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Bart,

I cannot answer for the CWGC. Michael Fitzwilliam PEACOCK was a pre-war member of No. 601 Squadron and was the best aerobatic pilot in the squadron. Born in South Africa he was educated in England, captained Brasenose College Oxford rugby team, skied for England, & became a barrister sharing chambers with Roger BUSHELL another celebrated member of the squadron. BUSHELL went on to command No. 92 Squadron while PEACOCK was posted to command No. 85 Squadron on May 20, 1940, after S/L 'Doggie' OLIVER was posted to command No. 60 Wing.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Peter,

you appear to be quoting the serials provided by Heinrich Weiss for Brian Cull’s work?

Who Heinrich Weiss is I have no idea and what "Work" would that be please ?

Thanks
Alex

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Alex,

The details you quoted are as published in 'Twelve Days in May' by Brian Cull & Bruce Lander with Heinrich Weiss (Grub Street 1995). Was that not your source ?

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Peter,

I understand you're not the CWGC. :) Why I asked is that I've seen many men listed by the CWGC with a rank one step higher than they have when mentioned by other sources, and rarely the other way round, as in the case of M.F. Peacock.

Regards,

Bart

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Bart,

Understood. Michael PEACOCK was possibly only 'Acting Squadron Leader' and this rank not substantive on his death.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Peter,

Thank you for the responce.
It was not as a matter of fact, although I do have it, and I now see where the name Heinrich Weiss came from, it was FCL vol 1 and I made a typo error with a 2 instead of a 3.
BUT
I am glad you raised the question on these Hurricane losses because you are correct as even with the 3 in P2437 it is still not a Hurricane serial number.
I got out the books and in "12 Days" P2427 is noted on pages 284 & 297 .
While in FCL vol 1 page 28, P2437 is recorded.
There is NO CORECTION to this in the revised vol 1 recently published on page 29, P2437 is still reported as Burton's Hurricane.
I then looked in L1000 - N9999 and on page 22 for L2141 -213/601-NFT 20.5.1940 in France, is all it has.Nothing of being SoC on the 3rd July 1940.
Then I took a peek in P1000 - R9999 and on page 19 for P2555 all it has is 43/85 - Lost in France 5.40.
For P2427 and P2437 both are recorded on page 18 as Miles Magister's as you rightly reported earlier.
And P3426 on page 30 has only Tangmere - Presumed lost in France 5.40.
I have scanned the pages of both of these books and there is nothing that stands out .

However I would just like to ask firstly if you know how S/L. Peacock got back so fast to his unit as he baled from P2551 the day before. I do not know how far from his base he landed but must have got back pretty quick to be up again the next morning(?) in action ?

And Secondly have you any thoughts as to Burton's Hurricane being P3427 as perhaps at some time the numbers may have been scrambled ? The Air Britain serial book has the same for this a/c as for P3426 except there is no date given.

Or even that P2437 is correct and that it could even be one of the five Hurricanes that were not delivered to the Belgian AF, and that it was an erronious serial that was adopted for this Hurricane ? What are your thoughts on that ?

N2363 is recorded as 43/85-Damaged on landing, 21.4.40 and abandoned 5.40.
Could this be the Hurricane that Sgt. Hampshire was instructed to leave at Metz on the 21st May ?

By the Bye, the website k5083.mistral.co.uk seems to show that in the serial range for P2437 there were 500 a/c ordered from Gloster's. Starting at P2535 which would give us P2537 listed in the Air Britain series as 79 Lost in France 5.40. Could this a/c have gone on to 85 ? No as it was lost with P/O. Appleton KIA on the 14th May 40.

Hope that you can clear this "New" mystery up and let us know the answer.

Thanks Brian for bringing the question up. I think we are all scratching our heads on this now.

Alex

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Alex,

Thanks for the clarification. To address the points you have raised:

However I would just like to ask firstly if you know how S/L. Peacock got back so fast to his unit as he baled from P2551 the day before. I do not know how far from his base he landed but must have got back pretty quick to be up again the next morning(?) in action ?

It is not recorded exactly how PEACOCK got back to Merville after he came down somewhere ‘east of Lille’ a distance of a little under 20 miles. He either commandeered transport, or telephoned the squadron to send a car to collect him – who knows? Clearly he was back in time to lead the mid-afternoon sortie next day on which he was lost.

And Secondly have you any thoughts as to Burton's Hurricane being P3427 as perhaps at some time the numbers may have been scrambled ? The Air Britain serial book has the same for this a/c as for P3426 except there is no date given.

Good theory - this is plausible. Unfortunately I doubt that we will never know for sure.

Or even that P2437 is correct and that it could even be one of the five Hurricanes that were not delivered to the Belgian AF, and that it was an erronious serial that was adopted for this Hurricane ? What are your thoughts on that ?

You invite my thoughts, so to paraphrase Dowding - Gosh ! This is speculative in the extreme & a shade too fanciful for me I’m afraid. As you accept, P2437 was a Miles Magister.

N2363 is recorded as 43/85-Damaged on landing, 21.4.40 and abandoned 5.40.
Could this be the Hurricane that Sgt. Hampshire was instructed to leave at Metz on the 21st May ?

I’m sorry but I have no idea. Under normal circumstances it would have been passed to an RSU soon after the damage had been assessed as requiring repair ‘off-unit’ and, once airworthy, re-allocated though not necessarily to its original squadron.

By the Bye, the website k5083.mistral.co.uk seems to show that in the serial range for P2437 there were 500 a/c ordered from Gloster's. Starting at P2535 which would give us P2537 listed in the Air Britain series as 79 Lost in France 5.40. Could this a/c have gone on to 85 ? No as it was lost with P/O. Appleton KIA on the 14th May 40.

Sorry but P2537 was NOT the aircraft flown by APPLETON on May 14, 1940. A photograph exists showing it coded NV*K & abandoned fairly intact (though partially stripped) presumably at Merville which No.79 Squadron vacated on May 20, 1940.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Peter,

P2537 was NOT the aircraft flown by APPLETON on May 14, 1940. A photograph exists showing it coded NV*K & abandoned fairly intact (though partially stripped) presumably at Merville

Well you certainly seem to be destroying the information that is given in "Twelve Days in May" by Brian Cull and Bruce Lander with Heinrich Weiss, as well as that given also in Fighter Command Losses volume 1 by Norman R. Franks which is also in the Revised and updated volume recently published.

They have P2537 as the a/c that P/O. L.L. Appleton was killed in and also that it crashed on the 14th May 1940 Shot down in combat by return fire from a Ju88 near Renaix( FCL vol 1 and revised version) while "12 Days in May" has P2537 as the a/c that P/O.L.L.Appleton was killed in Shot down (beleived by return fire from an He111 of II/LG1 or by Bf110 of ZG1 and that it crashed East of Renaix.

You say that they are wrong and that there is photographic proof of the a/c being elsewhere ?

As I personally do not know how far Renaix is from Merville is it not possible that between the 14th and 20th the a/c could have been removed to Merville ?

Please if possible could you put the photo up on this forum for us to see, thank you.

This all leaves us with yet more Question's now as we have now to assertain which aircraft P/O.Appleton was flying when he met his death, besides those mentioned in earlier replies here.

So to start with may I ask you what your information is based on and where is it from ?

Thanks
Alex

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

My uncle, Hauptmann Dr. Albrecht Ochs, was almost certainly involved in this combat, although he did not claim in this action, whilst with 4. JG 3.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Alex,

Well you certainly seem to be destroying the information that is given in "Twelve Days in May" by Brian Cull and Bruce Lander with Heinrich Weiss, as well as that given also in Fighter Command Losses volume 1 by Norman R. Franks which is also in the Revised and updated volume recently published. They have P2537 as the a/c that P/O. L.L. Appleton was killed in and also that it crashed on the 14th May 1940 Shot down in combat by return fire from a Ju88 near Renaix( FCL vol 1 and revised version) while "12 Days in May" has P2537 as the a/c that P/O.L.L.Appleton was killed in Shot down (beleived by return fire from an He111 of II/LG1 or by Bf110 of ZG1 and that it crashed East of Renaix.

That was not my intention. However, I am well aware that (not for the first time) my research has led me to reach different conclusions to previously published accounts.

You say that they are wrong and that there is photographic proof of the a/c being elsewhere ?

No, I simply document what I believe to be the facts of the matter & trust readers to form their own conclusions. The photograph is attached.

As I personally do not know how far Renaix is from Merville is it not possible that between the 14th and 20th the a/c could have been removed to Merville ?

Hardly. The aircraft flown by APPLETON was clearly subject of a terminal velocity crash and, as I said, P2537 was photographed fairly intact.

Please if possible could you put the photo up on this forum for us to see, thank you.

It is not mine to share. However, purely in the interests of trying to accommodate you & close this debate, I am posting the image as it appeared when the photo was offered for auction on eBay & thus came into the public domain.

This all leaves us with yet more Question's now as we have now to assertain which aircraft P/O.Appleton was flying when he met his death, besides those mentioned in earlier replies here. So to start with may I ask you what your information is based on and where is it from ?

As I have published in The Battle of France Then & Now (p268) I believe that P2635 was the aircraft flown by APPLETON when lost on May 14, 1940. There is no Holy Grail - my information is based upon years of personal research of surviving contemporary documentation & subjective analysis of RAF serials. But as P2537 is evidently incorrect perhaps it is fitting that your question is equally directed to those who suggest it was so ?

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Peter,

Many thanks for showing the photo, I recal that I have seen this one before I think on the LEMB old site, perhaps it is still shown on the new one ? Looks like the port side of the a/c is pretty badly wrecked .

All the very best , keep us informed please - even by PM if you prefere.
Alex

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hi Alex/Peter

Peter - you are aware that Heinrich passed away a few years ago and is therefore unable to respond to the final sentence of Post N.17. Perhaps it was a fact at the time!

Brian

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Brian,

Yes, I am aware that Heinrich WEISS is no longer with us though, fortunately, his archive survives thanks to Larry Hickey. I've no personal axe to grind & little interest in what was published back in 1995 -research has moved on. But, accepting the notion of cabinet responsibility, I felt that Alex's question could equally well be directed elsewhere. I'm quite sure that Heinrich WEISS was sincere in his belief that P2537 was APPLETON's aircraft, but clearly this was not so.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hi Peter

I have to respond. As you are aware, I do have an axe (albeit a little one) to grind. You say that you have little interest in what was published back in 1995 - obviously referring to 'Twelve Days in May' - but that did not prevent you from having access to all our research material (many years of mainly original research from many primary sources), which has apparently not been acknowledged in your book (sorry, I haven't seen a copy so this may be incorrect).

Of course errors were made in 'Twelve Days' and, as you say research moves on, but mangnanimity is surely free. I don't wish to continue the fall-out, so that's my final word (I hope!)

Amen
Brian

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Brian,

Your final word ? I hope so to. My comments on this thread to date have been in relation to incorrect details posted in good faith by Alex Smart, but as you now seem to wish to broaden the debate I will take issue.

When I queried your sources for some of the RAF serials as published in Twelve Days in May you were unable to explain them other than to confirm they came from your co-author Heinrich WEISS. You suggested that he may have compiled them from German Intelligence reports on RAF crashes. As many of the serials concerned were lost in the Channel I knew full well this was disingenuous rubbish so I was satisfied that I could safely ignore them & rely on my own findings or, more to the point, the complete lack of them.

You subsequently sent me two packages of material compiled during your research. This was an entirely voluntary & generous gesture on your part as I did not request any such help, so how I could have 'prevented' it I am unsure. Amongst these papers were several extracts from Heinrich WEISS that did allow me to conclude (correctly as it later transpired) that the hitherto unrecorded RAF serials that troubled me were seemingly based upon simple gap-analysis of information culled from HALLEY's books on RAF Serials. There was, therefore, no contemporary source I had failed to consult which was my sole concern.

You will find the full extent of your co-operation fully acknowledged in my foreword to The Battle of France Then & Now. Magnanimity (if that is what is meant) is rarely free, its expression can sometime cost dear but I believe that I have, thus far, demonstrated it in Spades.

I've just realised your post was on April 1st - any significance ?

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hello Robert,

You partly replied - to say that all three hurricane's were lost in combat with II/JG3 at 15.30hrs and one (P2555) was lost to a Bf110 at 10.15hrs.
Can you elaborate on who the Luftwaffe pilots in II/JG3 and the BF110 were or do you accept the names/details as given in the fourth post by Peter ?

Thank you
Alex

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hi Alex,

my post was based on Peter`s book.
The involved German pilots were:
- morning combat probably somebody from the stI/ZG26 (Hptm.Makrocki?)
- afternoon combat: Hpt.von Selle (2 claims) Lt. von Werra (1) both from the stII/JG3 and Lt.Heymann (1) from the 4/JG3.

Regards

Robert

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Peter

I have to respond once again. Your remark that Heinrich Weiss' research work/conclusions are "disingenuous rubbish" do you no favours. Please retract this. He cannot defend himself and I am sure that you uncovered much original information among his copious notes now safely in the hands of Larry Hickey.

Although I have yet to see your tome, I feel confident that I will find omissions and errors - as will others (as they did in 'Twelve Days in May') - but we would surely refrain from doubting your overall ability as an aviation historian/researcher/writer.

Please record your apology here for all to see. Heinrich was a remarkable researcher and is sorely missed. His work - sans a few errors - will stand the test of time.

Brian

(Please don't oblige me to write 'another' final word on the subject!)

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Brian,

Sorry but I'm afraid you are mistaken & entirely misrepresent my remarks. If you care to re-read my comments you will see that my reference to 'disingenuous rubbish' was in respect to your suggestion that Heinrich WEISS may have compiled his information from German Intelligence reports on RAF crashes, not his work or conclusions. I hope this clarifies matters.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Hi,
Did someone knows how to find photo of Peacock and Shrewsbury. I live in Arras and go on their graves but would like to know more about them

Thanks

Laurentbiblio

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Peter,

I would support the view that Michael Peacock was only Acting or given a field promotion and his movement from 601 Squadron was precipitated by Squadron Leader Oliver's move to HQ. We do know that on May 20th 1940, No. 85 Squadron received orders to destroy its ciphers and records; in all probability the postings in/out of the Squadron, records of promotions etc. did not survive to enable us in confirming the theory.

I wrote to CWGC last year indicating my suspicion that the records were possibly incorrect but without the necessary proof, the History will for the time being remain as it is.

An intriguing situation nontheless.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Gentlemen

I have one question regarding this interesting debate.
"Acting" S/L Peacock is stated by Peter to have received his posting on May 20th to No 85 Sq, that is the same day he was killed! How come he is then listed with No 85 Sq both as S/L and member when he bailed on May 19th?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Stig,

could I ask where the source of information was derived regarding the bale out? I saw a similar entry on a website stating this date and also that Sergeant Crozier, No. 85 Squadron, was killed after a bale out. Our records indicate the contrary that he was wounded and returned to the UK.

As in a large number of cases it is difficult for us to establish facts so long after the events of 1940. According to which sources you read "Fighter Squadron at War" by A.J. Brookes, Squadron Leader Peacock arrived on 20 May to take command, later in the same chapter his loss having failed to return from offensive patrols and finally it is stated that the Squadron had lost its new C.O the day after he arrived.

Acting ranks, immediate movements of personnel, destruction of records; such is the confusion created in the fog of war. We have to cross examine the evidence from all sources and ultimately form our own conclusions.

I still hold firm to the belief that the Flight Lieutenant Peacock of 601 Squadron buried in Arras, is one and the same person as Squadron Leader Peacock, 85 Squadron. CWGC records indicate no other casualty of that surname for the month of May 1940.

While the facts evade us the mystery will no doubt continue.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Laurent

From CWGC regarding Flight Lieutenant Peacock:

"Son of T. C. H. Peacock, and of Kathleen S. Peacock, of Chalvington, Sussex. Double Blue, Oxford; Captain of Richmond Rugby Football Club; Barrister-at-Law (Middle Temple)".

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Yellow 6

My question was regarding S/L Peacock and nothing else. My source regarding his bale out on the 19th is our eminent Peter Cornwell and the excellent The Battle of France then and now. My question remains the same. If someone gets posted on the 20th from 601 Sq to 85 Sq, why is he then listed with 85 Sq on the 19th, the day be baled out?
In your mail you tend to confirm that Peacock arrived to the 85th on the 20th, so how can he bale out from one of the units aeroplanes on the 19th?
If someone says he arrived on the date of the 20th, he cant be there on the 19th as well could he, unless there is something fishy with these postings...:)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

To all those who have replied to my original question, many thanks. Sorry I have been so late in responding. I am the editor of the 85 Association magazine, HEXAGON, and am always searching for suitable articles. Michael Peacock is of prime interest. I understand he flew to France on 17 May in a Hurricane to take command of 85 (this could have been the Tangmere station flight connection) but the aircraft went u/s en route. His journey was completed by road and he arrived at Merville late, shortly before his last sortie on 20 May. Once again thanks to you all. KC

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Well KC

If he flew to France on the 17th and didn't arrive until the 20th, it begs the question what he was doing bailing out on the 19th?

The long transit period would in itself explain the discrepancies but not his bailing out on the 19th. Possibly the records are not entirely accurate. What about he arrived already on the 19th, was shot down, returned to unit, was shot down again and died on the 20th?

We are talking semantics here, I guess out of historical interest, but don't forget what a life they had back in May 1940...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Photos have now emerged that indicate P3426 was NOT the aircraft flown by SHREWSBURY of No.85 Squadron when lost on 20 May 1940 as I have recorded in BoFrT&N.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

Interesting stuff - and a further indication (if any were needed!) of the hopeless muddle of 85 Squadron losses and aircraft during that period.

Re: Loss of 3 Hurricanes of 85 Sqn 20 May 1940
 

I did a lot of research on Hurricane P3351 in the 90's when she was being restored.

The record card indicates she joined 73 Sqn on 18th June 1940.

Her first flight with 73 Sqn was on 3rd June when she was picked up as a spare aircraft. (From log book).

The record card was updated on 18th when she returned from France with the unit. 73 Sqn were going through Hurricanes at a rate of notes and a number were listed on the record card as lost - France May 1940.

So P3351 undertook two weeks of operations with 73 Sqn in France even before she was officially with the unit.

Everything about the RAF and France 1940 is a nightmare to research.

Just confirming the above and that P3351 was marked up as 'K' took 5 years!

Regards

Mark