Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Hello,
I am new to this forum, just signed up yesterday and was looking forward to participating on the Hartmann 352 victories or 80 discussion.
What happened to the thread?
Any comments,
Thanks,
Vinman.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

Vinman wrote:
What happened to the thread?




lost in combat .;)

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

Hello Boandlgramer,
Why was it ended?
Did it get to hot for discussing, or some other reason?
Vinman.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

last pages were a little bit too "off topic" , and also insulting.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

Hi Boandlgramer,

Its too bad that some individuals cannot have an intelligent discussion, without insults.
If people could only put away their bias opionions and stop making blanket statements, then evyone could have a great debate. Oh well, maybe the subject will come up again.
The only question I have is: Does Hartmann's score or any other Luftwaffe Ace's score include shared kills? You never see it written in any publication. For example, Johnnie Johnson: 38 Kills (30 Individual + 7 Shared).
Vinman.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

in the german luftwaffe there was no shared victory.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

I find that hard to believe. If one can imagine an aerial battle, with say 25 to 30 aircraft on each side, everyone is in the sky shooting at each other. Surely, there must have been a few who shot at the same plane, therfore, sharing in a kill?

Vinman.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

There was the 'iron rule' in German AF during both of WWs: '1 kill = 1 pilot', no percentage, no shares.

Re: shared victories
 

Over and over German fighter pilots state that they did not share victories. The pilots claiming a share were left to sort out for themselves who received credit for a kill. Often senior pilots, already having credits, would give way to a less experienced pilot to encourage them.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

This rule simplifies a lot the historians' work.

For example, in the Rumanian air force (ARR), shared victories counted as a full victory for every pilot, who took part in destroying that particular airplane in air or on ground, although the fighter squadron/group tally raised only with one. It's causing huge problem in sorting out individual scores.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

Hi Denes,

I know that here in Canada, the RCAF included shares in the total score of the pilot. So, as you can see, I am still reluctant to believe that the Luftwaffe's Pilots did not have shared kills in their total. Aerial combat, with many planes in the sky, could be very confusing to say the least.
Vinman

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

Vinman

It simply means that the German pilots were not credited with shared victories. If several pilots have fired at the same aircraft (and noticed the fact), only one of them received credit. Thus it is not possible to say how many of Hartmann's victories were shared ones.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

As I recall, the matter of unshared victories is briefly mentioned in Heinz Knoke's autobiography, in which, I believe, he mentions shooting down a bomber earlier damaged by a friend. I cannot remember who received credit for the a/c but if you have the book "I flew for the Fuhrer" and compare it against the victories detailed on his Internet site, it should give you an idea.

As to sharing victories, weren't 5 Canadians given shares of an Me 262 they all took shots at?

One claim per kill exceptions
 

Some exceptions I have seen to the general rule of only one claim being credited per aircraft shot down: when the gunner in a multi-seat aircraft was credited with an "Abschuss" it seems that the pilot was also given credit in some instances, particularly in the Nachtjagd. Also in the Zestörer unit covering the Atlantic (V./KG 40 , later I./ZG 1) shared claims appear to have been awarded to two or more pilot's (c.f. Chris Goss in "Bloody Biscay" and Tony Wood's claims lists.)

Tom

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

Oh boy, I managed to get just about everything wrong in my previous posting on Heinz Knoke's victory. In fact, on reading the book and checking the Heinz Knoke website, this is what happened: The date was 5 Mar 42, and Heinz Knoke had managed to sneak above a PR Spitfire, and score damaging hits on it. But, suddenly his guns stopped firing. The Spitfire had slowed down but was still flying, and his smoke trail is becoming thinner. So a friend, Dieter Gerhand, coming into view, said, "Then let me finish him, Heinz." And, so he did, with the pilot managing to bail out. In addition to his joy in seeing the pilot survive, Heinz Knoke noted, "This is my first combat victory in the air." But, Dieter Gerhard was given sole credit for the victory.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

Hi,

I know of one example of a Luftwaffe pilot having a shared victory. A pilot from I./J.G. 2 who flew in the Mediterranean theatre in 1944 began the campaign with 3.5 victories, and ended it with 5.5. Obviously he had gained a shared victory in France in 1943 or 1944.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

"You'll never silence the voice of the voiceless" - Rage Against The Machine

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

Well, strictly, the Luftwaffe pilots had shared victories, but these panes were claimed individually as full kills. I know many examples against the US planes, when the same bombers were claimed some pilots (sometimes it was confirmed to for one as HSS, another as e.V. but as a full kill and even for a thid as a full kill also)

In some cases, that German and Hungarian fighters attacked the same US bomber Groups. In Hungarian side, for the Hungarian fighters, some bombers were confirmed as "collaboration with" German figters (on the same engagements, the Germans claimed these planes always as full kills to themselves and never mentioned the Hungarians - another example, which shows well, that the Hungarian claiming and confirming system was much more strict, than the German one)

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

As I know, this is the straight way from WWI Allies tradition, when each shared victoy counted as a full victory for every British, American, Russian etc pilot of group fighted with enemy planes.

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

I guess, you are right (and it happened few times with some Hugarian claims in 1944 also)

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Contrary to what has been said in this thread, shared victories were more often credited to full victories to the aces rather than to their wingmen. I have read more often German pilots complaining their claims were rejected to give credits to unit or Schwarm leaders than pilots saying their leader let them a victory credit.

At least in some cases, when Germans pilots claimed numerous victories and a smaller number of wrecks was found, the pilots awarded with kills were the ones having the higher scores, the other seeing their claim rejected (happens to Crump of JG 26 at the start of his combat experience).

Most shared victories are against bombers. German principle was to give the credit of the victory to the pilot who damaged the plane enough to make if break of the formation (HSS victory). The final destruction of the isolated damaged bomber (e.V.) was in principle not counted as a victory (but gave points for medals award). In real life, claims were often awarded for both types of claims, as American heavy bombers were able to fly for a long distance even with heavy damage.

As for the record for shares, during the Phoney War, a Ju52 was shot down over the French-German frontier by 11 French pilots. Every of this pilot was accorded a victory (each for 1/11 of a Ju52).

Regarding the score of Experten and propaganda, it is propable that all claims of these guys were accepted (and celebrated). The German confirmation processus may last more than one year, while the news abouth these "stars" should be used at once. On the other hand, I don't think that German newspapers gave individual scores of pilots during air battles, even if they will show celebrations for 100th, 200th and so on victories.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

As I mentined in an earlier post, The RAF Ace Johnnie Johnson was credited with 38 Kills (30 Individual+8 shared).
What was Hartmann's ratio? Is his score broken up the same way?
Vinman

Re: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?
 

I assume the Rumanians copied the early-war French tradition and kept it 'till the end of the war (although most of these shared victories happened in the 1941 campaign).

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Some additional information can be found here on Neil's web page.

http://www.members.aol.com/falkeeins...annclaims.html

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

If that was Erich Hartmann's 'method' for claiming victories -- it is all the proof we need that he was substantially overclaiming enemy aircraft destroyed and that his often-published score is grossly inflated.

To be fair, it was not uncommon for flyers to assume that an enemy plane would crash if it was trailing smoke. But, it is rather astonishing that an experienced hunter like Hartmann could be so amateurish to justify that as a policy -- after 1,500 combat missions!

A smoke trail does not even prove that the enemy plane was hit by gunfire. Many engines would belch smoke when the pilot selected full power. If the motor was not operating in top condition or the fuel was bad, the engine would emit more smoke. When a plane was hit by gunfire, a trail of smoke was hardly enough to guarantee that the enemy plane would crash.

Thank you for posting that link. The article was very enlightening.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

I dont think you are being fare to Erich Hartmann. I am sure He witnessed good hits before the smoke to asume he had been it's victor. If he had followed all his victims down to the crash site, he would not have survived very long. I am sure all pilots of all nations claimed this way. But I am not going to question every fighter pilot who claims a kill.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

You are most welcome but please give credit to Neil and the authors he translated...


As for the one part about smoke - I think the point was that if enough smoke was seen that from experience the assumption could be made that an engine fire or other fatal damage was inflicted thus it was claimed as a kill.

Cheers

John

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

If he didn't see the plane crash, then he should not claim that it crashed. Especially if the plane was just 'trailing smoke' rather than spinning down in flames or falling in little pieces.

Unless the gun camera record shows the enemy plane hit the ground, broke up or exploded in mid-air, or the pilot is filmed while bailing out, the intelligence people should usually reject such a claim for lack of evidence.

When gun film was not available, it may have been acceptable to consider eyewitness reports from other pilots, but that could get confusing if there were many planes swirling around and shooting at each other in the same area.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Yes I understand what you are saying. I just don't think we should pick on any specific fighter pilot. I think this type of claim happened with all fighter pilots who claimed many kills. Maybe we should just deduct 3/4 of all claims from all pilots. Robert Johnson was claimed shot down in his P47 "Half Pint" in 1943, because the German fighter pilot thought there was no whay he would make it across the Channel. Johnson himself didn't think he could.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Erich Hartmann's tactics in aerial combat was to approach the enemy aircraft as closely as possible and open fire whereby the destructive effect of the MG and cannon projectiles was devastating and fewer rounds would miss. Hartmann had the experience to know when an enemy aircraft was finished and that the smoke trailing the enemy aircraft was caused by him.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Robert Johnson's P-47 was written off (Category E) upon his return and thus the German fighter pilot was responsible for the destruction of one P-47 and thus his claim is confirmed from USAAF records.

The fact is that some units on both sides had a more "liberal' attitude toward confirmation of kills. JG 2 is one example. The MTO seems notorious for overclaiming on the American side. For example, on 30 July 1944, the 325th FG claimed 21 single-engined fighter which they identified as both German and Italian fighters over Sardinia. The Italians had previously been pulled back to the Italian mainland. The opponents of the Americans were from III./JG77 which in fact lost only four fighters and one pilot killed, a claim of 5:1. The story improved with time where the Americans claimed that Italian civilians near the base stated that some 30 German fighters failed to return, and thus, confirming for the Americans that their claims were understated. Since we have no record of the interrogation of these civilians, all that is possible at this time is to conclude that the American interrogator was putting the answers into his questions and that the Italians told him what he wanted to hear.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

The History Channel showed a documentary on "Heavy Metal" entitled "Mosquito Attack" on the development and operational history of the DeHavilland Mosquito. At the very beginning of the program, the narrator makes the preposterous claim that German fighter pilots received credit for two kills if they downed a Mosquito. Evidently, the writers of the program confused the point-system used by the Luftwaffe in the awarding of decorations and medals.

Later in the show the famous raid on the prison of Amiens on 18 Feb 1944 is shown. There was never any mention of the Typhoon fighter escort nor the interception by 7./JG 26 nor the loss of Group Captain Charles Pickard's Mosquito which was shot down by Fw. Wilhelm Mayer for his 13th kill. Mayer did not receive credit for a 14th kill. A Typhoon of 174 Sqd. was shot down by Lt. Waldemar Radener for his 12th kill. No losses were sustained by JG 26.

It is unfortunate that in the usual and typical fashion, the writers for the HC don't do the research into the German side of which there now is an abundant amount of material. In this case the writers could easily have looked at the excellent book "The JG 26 War Diary: Volume 2 1943-1945" by Donald Caldwell.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

This will make me think. I just moved (a year ago!) my books are still in storage. I think I read Johsons P-47 "Half Pint" was lost over the North sea by another pilot. I used to correspond with Johnson before he past away, I'll look through my letters to see if he mentioned this. His letters to me are about his spicific missions so they may not shed light on this. If I remember right he stated that " Half Pint" was his favorite P-47. Maybe I can talk my wife into letting me get my books back! Thanks for the response it gives me somthing to try and look up. Robert

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Hi All,


I wanted to add some more fuel to the fire here. The following is a quote from Karl Stein (SG 1) about comabt vs. an IL-2.

"I apparently got the read gunner of one because his gun was pointed upwards, and I expended all my ammunition - guns and cannon - on the plane. He started smoking, his right landing gear dropped, and he slowed way down. BUt I couldn't knock him down.When I broke off, he was still in the air though he probably didn't make it back to base."

Although he does not say he got a kill one has to wonder how this was reported. (w.b or prob. ??) Similar to the Hartmann comment earlier in the thread. ~ Thoughts?

John

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

I've read this thread, as well as the previous thread. It seems as if a starting point should be Hartmann's CONFIRMED victories. Not claims, not end-of-the-war take my word for it log book entries, but officially confirmed victories.

(Just slightly off topic, I looked through Christer Bergstrom's biography of Graf and Grislawski to see whether all their vics were "official". Although no specific informatin is given, Graf's final vicroty was in sumemr of 1944, Grislawski's was in Septemver 1944, both while the RLM victory claim process was still f unctioning. Christer, can you shed light on whether all their victories were confirmed?)

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

If a logbook (any logbook) was stamped and counter-signed by the superior officer, it should be regarded as primary source.

respectfully disagree
 

I believe that the claim/confirmation process was established to provide systematic checks and balances on individual claims.



The LW, at some level, had a vital interest in estimating its opponent’s losses which could help determining the strength of the enemy. This would avoid a situation similar to the Battle of Britain where Fighter Command was down to its last few Spitfires for weeks upon weeks. Thus a rigorous claim validation process can filter out spurious claims and begin to quantify at least one major cause of enemy losses.



Field units however, had incentives to maximize their victory totals. Personal awards, unit recognition, publicity, all pretty heady stuff for fighter pilots. So when a CO signs a logbook, it can mean that he really believes that Oblt. S shot down an Il-2. It can also mean that Oblt S was close to getting a medal, the Il-2 obviously went down, and so he must have shot it down. In the worst case it may mean the CO wants more recognition and the facts don’t matter, particularly if there’s no one from higher up to check.



Even if the CO, with the best intentions, signs the logbook, does he realize that another pilot from a different unit may have been shooting at the same airplane?



I understand your point, but I my opinion is that until the pilot received RLM confirmation it isn’t a victory. It’s only a claim.



But then again 352 is a sacred cow amongst us LW enthusiasts, isn’t it? And if we had to filter out unconfirmed claims it might be only 250.

After re-reading your post, I agree that a signed logbook should a A primary source. But it doesn't tell the whole story.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

I read allot about the claiming of shot down allied planes.
But isnt it an fact that the german fighter pilots where better than the allied,i mean if we doubt all the claims over the best west allied(38 hihi)or russian(68 hihi) and compare it to the german pilots with many over that of the best allied,first german pilots flew longer,at the start of 1943 there where more allied planes in the sky so they could pick it out,allied had to get in line to take an shot at the germans,and than the acces had more experiance than the allied,even wen they where outnumbered.
And what does after so long would be the provit of keeping up an lie,so i do believe its true.

chris

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

The Germans lost the war, so having "better fighter pilots" doesn't seem to have been of much help, does it? Having a small percentage of high scorers is not the same as having an effective fighter force. Stephen Bungay's book about the Battle of Britain "The Most Dangerous Enemy" has a very interesting discussion of this question.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Germany didn't loose the war because of its combat pilots. Blaiming the airmen for the failure of the leadership and command is not exactly beneficial.

Re: Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)
 

Hmm, pilots are an extension of leadership and command, so what is your point?