Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Strange, but being Polish (and a patriot) of definitely Polish origin, found out, that on 3rd September 1939 a guy having surname exactly like mine was shot down near Warsaw, piloting Luftwaffe Messerschmitt Bf 110b!
I'd like to know sometning more about that pilot, event and the airplane (photo? marking scheme? code numbers?). Pilot was Unteroffizer Sigismund Mazurowski and has died that day.

Cheers!
Grzegorz Mazurowski, Warsaw, Poland
P.S. This is my first post on this forum, hello, everybody!
G.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Hi G

Welcome aboard the best and most informative site ever. I can't help you but am sure others will.

Cheers
Brian

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

I am sure that some of your compatriots will help but you are right-he was a pilot with 3 Staffel (Zerstoerer)/Lehrgeschwader 1 and was shot down near Warszawa in combat with Polish fighters. His gunner Uffz Guenther Lother was also killed

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

von Eimannsberger's book 'Zerstöregruppe' give the Staffel as 15.(Z)/LG 1. He says the change came in August 1939 when LG 1 added standard bomber Gruppen, and I. Gruppe was redesignated V. Gruppe (1, 2, & 3 Staffeln becoming 13. 14. & 15 staffeln).

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Very interesting, thanks!
Had de redesignation immediate effect (eg. in plane markings, code numbers?). I've heard that I.JG21, some time before the war turned into part of JG54, was still known with the old designation even in official documents.

And anybody can check the code number of Mazurowski's airplane, and exact version (some say that it was 110B, and some that it could have been 110C). Are the exact airplane versions for Sept. 1939 in that unit known?

Thanks in advance!
G.

P.S. my German friend wrote to me:
"this Bf110B was from 3.Staffel , I.(Z)/ LG 1. This means it was from the Zerstörerstaffel des Lehrgeschwaders 1.

Verbandskennung (Unit Code) of LG 1 was L1

The Staffelbuchstabe of the 3.Staffel was D
(A = Stab = green
B = 1. Staffel = white
C = 2. Staffel = red
D = 3. Staffel = yellow
E = 4. Staffel = blue).

So it very likely that this Bf 110B was painted in standard 70/71/65 colors and marked with L1+?D. The unknown letter aft of the cross (the aircraft's letter) should be yellow or black with a yellow line."

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Not exactly.

1 (and 13) Staffel - H;
2 (and 14) Staffel - K;
3 (and 15) Staffel - L.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Hello Greg,

according to Marius Emmerling 'Luftwaffe nad Polską 1939' tom I - Bf.110B from 3. Staffel I.(Z)/LG 1 was shot down over Zielonka (w gminie Kobyłka) by CO of 111 EM por. Wojciech Januszewicz.


Hope it helps!

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

This combat was described in great detail in many Polish book, including the major work on Polish fighters in 1939 by Jerzy B. Cynk, therefore there is no need to refer to Emmerling.
From the VDK site.

Nachname: Mazurowski Vorname: Sigismund Dienstgrad: Unteroffizier Geburtsdatum: 08.04.1913 Geburtsort: Montigny Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 03.09.1939 Todes-/Vermisstenort: b.Nachna-Warschau

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Great Polish propaganda, Franek!

Please give me the page number in Cynk`s book, where are listed Uffz.Mazurowsky and Uffz. Lother. Furthermore their Staffel and hours of the mission? Some titles with great detail would be appreciated also.

Many thanks in advance.
Marius

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

On p. 209 it is clearly stated that the victim of Januszewicz was Mazurowski. Your problems are not mine problems.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Cool it, guys! Let's keep civil and focused without the side comments..........

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

The name "Mazurowski" was found on a picture. That`s all on p.209. Where are the "great details" of the German crew or their mission on this day?!

Thanks for help.

Marius

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Marius,

we know that Franek didn`t read carefully the book of J.Cynk. There is only account from Polish side and something like this about involved German crew:

I`m immediately taking our technical officer and we are driving to the crash site. The bodies of two enemy airmen are two groups of meat lying some 150 meters of wrack. Their overalls are burning but we have water and could distinguish the fires. We are pulling their documents and wallets. I found one photo – good looking blonde guy in uniform of Luftwaffe NCO in garden. Beside him a young woman with child – apparently his wife. His name is: Mazurowsky…”

But no word about serial, markings, flight and exactly names and ranks of these two airmen. Marius, you was first who put the details from both sides together.

Regards

Robert

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Hey, does it mean that Marius knows the serial and markings of that Messer? Could you share?
And is the "B" version sure? What is the source of that information?
It is very interesting, fact that Januszewicz went to the crash site suggests that also on the Polish side there was possiblity of detailed account.
In fact I remember some relation from that fight by Januszewicz, who describes the whole combat, and also I remember Januszewicz's mistake, as he wrote that Messer was powered by Diesel engine. Was it in Marius' article about Brygada Poscigowa in Militaria XX wieku magazine?
TIA!
Grzegorz

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Hi,

such details like markings and serial are still unknown. But we know the time of German missions (there two formations) and all losses.
BTW it was Bf110C. The Bf110B were used only by the 3/ZG76.

Regards

Robert

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Robert,
could you provide us with the source for this much questionable information?

Regards,
Marius

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Marius,

you have my PM.

Robert

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

The original statement was as follows: 'according to Marius Emmerling 'Luftwaffe nad Polską 1939' tom I - Bf.110B from 3. Staffel I.(Z)/LG 1 was shot down over Zielonka (w gminie Kobyłka) by CO of 111 EM por. Wojciech Januszewicz.'
The victim of Januszewicz was identified just after the combat, and this information was repeated in several books, published years before Emmerling's one, including Cynk's volume. Therefore any claim that it was Emmerling who identified opponents is just ridiculous.
Cynk's book does include a lengthy account of Januszewicz and it is a matter of fact that Polish accounts are more numerous and more detailed comparing to the German ones.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Hi,

Cynk`s book is nothing more than one-side story with many mistakes concerning Luftwaffe losses and activities. Also many details e.g. evacuation of damaged P-11 from the III/3 from Polish side are missing. So it`s a good source but it leaves many gaps in our aviation history.

Regards

Robert

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Maybe yes, but the accounts are in 95% or more just individual memories written long after and they are worthless without documents of higher staffs. Therefore German documents are most decisive here.


Nonsense. According to these "more detailed accounts" the aerial combat between I.(Z)/LG 1 and dyon III/1 on 3.9.1939 took place after 10.00 hours (!???????????). Sorry Franek, but your comments are ridiculous again.


The author is more believing personal memories (with many mistakes) than original documents and that`s the biggest problem. For example plk. Pawlikowski wrote a report at 9.15 hours (after the combat), but the author means the time cannot be true (!?????????????).

Regards,
Marius

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

I repeat, it was well known years before Emmerling published his books and articles, that Mazurowski was downed by Januszewicz.
The claim that Polish reports and accounts were filed years after events is just as ridiculous as the claim that there are no period Polish documents around (interestingly Emmerling denies himself in his post). Cynk's book is about Polish Air Force and not the German one, and despite few minor flaws it is still state of the art on the subject.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Taking into consideration the amount of materials, which were available to the author this book should be (and have to be) done better.

Robert

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

I will wait for your book.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Gentelmen, I see some unnecessary conflict... so typical for the serious researchers ;-)

BTW, I'm really interested if it was Bf 110 B or C, could you be so kind, Robert, and share with us your information, not only with Marius on priv.?

I'd like to build a model of that airplane, knowing the version is essential.

BTW, is the range of code numbers possible for this airplane known?

Thanks in advance!
G.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

The point is that I cannot consider a man spreading false or manipulated information a serious researcher or even researcher at all.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Stick to: "HE WHO ASSERTS MUST PROVE" (a very worthwhile and proven legal tenent), and then,
1. We might get clarity on the whole issue of who said what;
2. We just might find out if it was a 'B' or a 'C'; and
3. We just might find out if it was from I./LG 1 or V./LG 1.

I really don't want to read another long Polish bun-fight...

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

John, as you wish. Would you like scans proving the name of the victor and his victim was known years ago? Additionally, a text showing maestry of research. http://www.mysliwcy.pl/artykul.php?id=93&dzial=1

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

No, please don't bother. Frankly, Franek, we don't give a damn. The original request had more to do with the variant and markings of the Bf 110 than the person who first documented the names of the combatants.

Your thread hijacking and petty, ad hominem attacks are irksome. Please do us all a favor: Add Marius Emmerling to your "Ignore" list and avoid responding to posts mentioning him. No doubt Marius can do the same.

Amen.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

John,
Please show me for example a German “Order of Battle” for 1.9.1939 with a “V./LG 1” recorded there! Sorry, but if somebody ever wrote about a “V./LG 1” in Polish campaign didn`t researched the period 1939 well or at all. In fact it is completely easy to come to know about this.

It is unbelievable, but Franek is using the ignorance of our “western readers” about the Polish campaign or about Polish documentation from this period and easily playing with you cat and mouse!


Grzegorz.

I./ZG 1, I.(Z)/LG 1 and I./ZG 76 each used in Poland one Staffel equipped with the Bf 110 B version. This fact is documented.


Marius

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

I was tempted to lock the thread, but I don't want to stop Grzegorz quest for information.

Lets get back on a more constructive track.

If not I'll just lock the thread and that's the end of it.

Re: Bf-110B down 3rd Sept 1939 near Warsaw
 

Well, I am not as generous as Ruy. This has gotten out hand in spite of my earlier warning. Too bad people cannot deal with an issue without getting into personal attacks that mean absolutely nothing to the rest of the members.

I am locking this thread. If Grzegorz still wants some information, he should start a fresh thread. And, a warning: anyone who starts personal attacks, again, will be subject to a ban from the Board.