1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Hi,

Does anyone bring more light into action of the 1 Sqn in Portsmouth area on 16 August 1940 please ? Did it fight with Bf 109s of JG 27 ?

Regards,
Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Hi,
This should help from the logbook of H J mann.


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...3/DSC_0169.jpg


http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...3/DSC_0170.jpg

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Hi Gerry,

Thanks for the copy.
A detailded analysis of the fight brought a possible victor who s/d Tim Elkington. Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket of 7./JG 27.

Regards,
Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

On a similar vein, can anybody help with a copy of the ORB or operational details for No1 Sq circa 11.8.40
Any help would be most appreciated.
Best regs,
Steve.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Michal, are you sure? I would say all the combats were quite a mess.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Franek,

Of course Michal cannot be sure but both time & location of the loss of ELKINGTON's Hurricane on August 16, 1940, make it a distinct possibility that he was 'bounced' by FRANZIKET of 7./JG27.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

But Tim was downed at 13.40 and JG27 claims were at 1315 over IoW, and at 1320 over Portsmouth!

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Franek: JG 27 and 1 Sqn were involved in the same attack so maybe times have become confused and Elkington was shot down over Portsmouth (or between Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight) and his Hurricane just about crashed on land at Chidham (I participated in the dig of his Hurricane MANY years ago) ergo the distinct assumption as to who got him

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Stukas took off at about noon - 1200. Tangmere was reputedly attacked at about 1300. II/JG27 claims were at 1315 over IoW, III/JG27 at 1320 over Portsmouth, II/JG53 at 1335 at unknown location, I/JG2 (Wick) at 1335 East of Portsmouth. Tim's log book filed at the time states 1340. This makes a logical sequence.
43 and 601 Sqns were attacked at about 1300-1320 thus fitting to JG27 claims. 602 Sqn was also hit, but at unspecified time. My guess is that 1 Sqn was scrambled before the German attack, gained height and was kept in the reserve flying around, and only then send to join the battle.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

29 Stukas of I/StG 2 took off at 1305 and attacked Tangmere 1355. 25 Stukas of III/StG 2 took off at 1305 and were turned back by defending fighters. 25 Stukas of III/StG 1 took off at 1300 hrs and attacked Lee on Solent & Ventnor. 22 Stukas from I/StG 3 took off at 1300 hrs and attacked Portsmouth. Escort was 62 from JG 2, 74 from JG 27, 78 from JG 53, 43 from ZG 2, 11 from V/LG 1 and claims were 2 Spitfires II/JG 27, 2 Hurricanes III/JG 27, 2 Hurricanes II/JG 53, 1 Hurricane I/JG 2, 1 Spitfire & 1 Hurricane from III/StG 2. One hell of a lot of aircraft were in the area at the time!

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Chris, I think you refer to the German time, while I have converted it into BST or DBST. By the way we have had a lengthy discussion with Tim concerning time difference - a little bit confusing.
I know of the mess of the battle, hence my question to Michal, why is he so sure it was Franziskeit and not Wick for example.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Franek,

We all seek certainty where often there can be none. Michal is not 'so sure' it was FRANZISKET - he makes no such claim, he simply points to the possibility. You consider WICK's claim much more likely, a fact that no-one will surely dispute.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Just a little more detail for 16 August 1940 from the Flugbuch of Uffz Paul Lege of 5/JG 27 who participated in events that day. He seems to have been flying a newly delivered 109 in factory codes NA+HS. He flew two war flights over England that day in this machine, as under:

Escort for Ju 87's over England from 13.15 to 14.25
Frei jagd over England from 17.50 to 19.00

These were his 41st and 42nd war flights respectively, and I suspect that NA+HS was W Nr 3881, becoming "14" by 20 August after which it was his regular mount and he rarely flew any other machine before being lost in it on 7 October 1940.

Just a little more minutiae for the 16 August 40.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Hi Franek &all,

1) I hope I am not wrong with differencies with British and German times but the German should be +1 hour.
2) It looks there were four Squadrons in the air in Portsmouth / Chichester / Selsey Bill area at about 12.55 and involved in the fight with a first wafe of Germans. The 1, 43 & 601 Sqn with Hurricanes and 602 Sqn with Spitfires. 43 at 11000 ft with 602 above near by Selsey Bill, 1 Sqn at 10000 ft probably a bit N/NW. The County of London Squadron close to Tangmere. It t/o from Tangmere at latest.
3) 43 Sqn attacked Ju 87s first at 12.55. CRs are only for that time but I believe they fought next 5-10 minutes at least. 602 Sqn did not attacked at that time. It could still covered Hurricanes against surprise from above or did not see Stukas and stay in their altitude. 601 Sqn started a clash with Ju 87s at 13.00 for next 5 minutes minimally. 1 Sqn did not participated.
3) German escort – Bf 109 must have had a delay behind Stukas. The 109s from JG 27 appeared on the scene at about 13.10 (14.10 German time), according to the times of first claims. 6th Staffel claims Spitfires in IoW area. Did they meet 602 Sqn ?
If yes, Oblt. Neumann and Lt. Stephan overclaimed because Spits had no casualty. 602 Sqn was already engaged with Stukas. At Selsey at about 13.05.
If no, they have made misidentification and attacked Hurricanes. Of the 43 and 601 Sqn. In the meantime the fight with Ju 87s was moving S – SW, from Tangmere / Selsey area to IoW area. The latter Squadron had one loss but P/O Fiske (c/l at Tangmere) is an evident victim of Ju 87 defence fire. Was it Obergefreiter Witznick of 9./StG 2 who claimed one Hurricane at 12.52 in Selsey area ? Maybe yes.
P/O Woods-Scawen of the 43 Sqn was hit by Ju 87 and there is a source what say that by Bf 109 too. He c/l at Parkhurst, IoW at 13.15. The Squadron had other two damaged Hurricanes – P/O Upton and P/O Gorrie. Both by Ju 87 defence fire, Gorrie with a cannon hole in its rudder too, is said. Upton c/l at Selsey but there is a big possibility it was not Witznick´s victim because of time – Upton claimed three Stukas, it costs a time and landed after oil system his Hurricane collapsed, again time factor. So maybe 6./JG 27 claims. More probably than they hit the Spitfires of 602 Sqn ?
4) 1 sqn was clearly in melée / contact with 109s. Due to route from home airbase at Northolt very probably northly the fighting area. It t/o at 12.30 and would have made farther Portsmouth (?) area by 1255 – 13.00. That is why it did not participated in shooting of Stukas even it was at 10.000 ft and Tim & other airmen could see them. There are two chances how it could continue with the 1 Sqn. I will start with the second possibility.
a) I am in contact with Tim too because of my photo/article, profile etc. for Revi magazine. He mentioned the time of he was s/d at 1.40 at the beginning of discussions. But later he also repeated „don't rely on my memory of time - it was quoted in a book Scramble - from my words“. So this time is not so full-fledged. Another argument why it is not so – it is hard to understandable the Squadron could be waited / flew around the fighting area, only a few miles far from that for almost one hour without a participation in that, when all other Squadron in the area fought hardly.
The time when Squadron met enemy should be about 13.10 and later. Tim said he lost Squadron too. There is time 14.20 (13.10 British) when Oblt. Franzisket claimed a Hurricane near Portsmouth. It is area where Tim´s a/c crashed – Chidham. The time is not so conformable but is it last (confirmed) German claim in the melée and „our“ area.
b) It occured my mind at the start of the puzzle „16 August“. How about own AA fire ? It would not be a first example when gunners shot on own a/c. Again we opened the disscussions with Tim about this possibility. Because I noticed a mention in the Mason´s BoB too, that Tim was a victim of naval gunners. The Squadron flew at 11.000 ft. I am not gun(s) expert but it is an altitude where 20 mm (an more) flak is effective. There is other source (BoB Then & Now) that mentions Tim was downed at 13.05. Out of German claims. Tim did not see the flak around however ...
That is why I rather incline to say a possible victor who s/d Tim Elkington was Oblt. Ludwig Franzisket of 7./JG 27.

I have no patent for rightness and I am open to work with other arguments. 68 years after this event is hard to solve a 100% answer on such big fight. But after working with the details the puzzle could look like was announced. At any rate the Revi article is not built on the fact / event „who shot whom“. ;)

Regards from rainy Czech republic,
Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Andy
Thanks for the precious bit, it is indeed rare information.

Peter
I do not know who downed Tim, but I am curious how the conclusion was made, if evidence known to me indicates otherwise.

Michal
Tim's time of loss comes from his log book and according to him, it was filed at the time of events, so still fresh in his mind and possibly supported by documents. As to the Squadron staying out of combat, it could have been considered a reserve to join the battle when other units had to retreat. It was RAF tactics of the time to join combat by single Squadrons and the Big Wing was not possibly even an idea. Wick's place of claim is spot on as well, and the question is - whom he fought then?

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Franek,

213 H & 152 S Sqn fought with 109s SE Swanage, over IoW and E IoW at about 13.40 (British time). That were main opponents for JG 2 and Wick.

Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Michal
You answer your question then, what have been doing 152 and 213 Sqn during the raid?

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Franek,

They were called up from western basis a bit later probably, when four Squadrons were in the air already. Sorry I do not have ORB for them.
The reply was on your question to Wick, as well as this.

Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

So I would say a further research into ORBs and Combat Reports is needed. Still I see no argument supporting Franziskeit thesis.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

You don`t see but we see.
BTW Michal I came to the same conclusion.

Regards

Robert

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Franek,

Every time, when it is needed I want / need to work with ORB etc.
Your question was who could fought with Wick. I replied.
I am not solving who was a victim of Wick but who s/d Tim Elkington. Wick is much more likely out for me because of (comprehensive) info mentinoned already. With a help of ORB too.
I welcome if the disscussion continue not like in court. Squadron entries, times, memories etc. are contribution.

Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Michal
For both unit mentioned there is only a single loss of 213 Sqn Hurricane listed by BoB T&N as lost off Portland at 1300. How about that? I simply do not find evidence that support your thesis. That is all.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Franek,

According to the CRs both Squadrons were in fight in already noted times / locations.

Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Michal
Again it proves that all available documents should be reviewed. One important point - data given in header of document sometimes have little relevance to the narrative.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

I have to mess things up by repeating what I have said before - don't rely on my idea of time. Very soon after my 1.40 quote got into print - not from my log book, but from a dizzy mind - I realised that I meant to say 12.40. I had the 40 & the 1 in mind & I put them the wrong way around - if you can understand that. And I know that even that could not have been an accurate time!!

1305, at least, is for sure - because it was logged by Services on the ground.

I thought that the times of No1 airborne from Northolt at 1230 tied in with Selsey at around 1250 & my demise at 1305? But I shall stay out of it in future - FAR too complicated for me. Just would prefer it NOT to have been our own guns!!

= Tim

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Tim,

Thank you for that comment !
If it was flak or not I believe your wife was not with the AA battery.

Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Speaking of times, what were the sqn doing until 1415??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...RAF2/16840.jpg

= Tim

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Having looked at my notes I see that we found portions of the rudder post pierced by at least two bullet strikes from above and behind. Oh, and we later confirmed it was Mr Elkington's Hurricane by discovering the brass data plate with the a/c serial number. The aeroplane had burnt severely on impact.

For what its worth.....!

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

HOORAY for Andy. Worth a mint!!

About ORBs in general, if anyone goes near our entries for August 12 - 15th, I would dearly love to know if my flight times are there. My log book got out of kilter & I desperately need to put history right. All expenses paid. Plus!!

= Tim

PS Thanks, Andy!!

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

PS for Steve Sheridan.

All I know is that I flew from Northolt to Tangmere (20 min) with F/Sgt Berry & returned later!
And that P/O Davey was killed, crash landing on the IOW. P/O Shaw was hit. Tried to bale out but canopy was stuck. Got home instead!

Looking back at the Combat Report & 10 a/c landing back at 1415 - Mann's log above shows that he landed at Hullavington. One begins to despair as to the validity of records??

= Tim

PS Oh, & Chris - 'just about landed at Chidham' - & I just about landed on West Wittering!!

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Random notes for West Sussex 16.8.1940 from local records:

Hurricane force landed at Birdham 13.03hrs
Hurricane in marshes near Thorney Island 13.50hrs
Hurricane at Woodgate, Aldingbourne 17.58hrs. Pilot injured

Andy

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Like I said to Michal, we didn't do too well that day!!

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Tim, your log book states 1340, so I assume you wrote that at the time of events. I would not be surprised if your log book is more accurate than several contemporary documents, this depending on clerks. Worth to note here that the patrol report you have pasted in here clearly notes take off and landing times, thus excluding possibility that you have had been downed at 1240. Also, it states that the Squadron was to patrol base, so did not proceed to Tangmere immediately. I would say 1340 seems pretty logical and in sequence of events.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Evening Tim, many thanks for answering my post and providing information with regs. 11.8.40.
Do you have your logbook on hand, to be able to clarify which Hurri you were flying this day.

Also, have you previously posted scans from your logbook featuring the Battle of Britain period? ... I feel sure i remember seeing some!

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Steve - no - very seldom kept numbers. If it were not for Andy, I wouldn't know my 16/8 a/c either! Scans? Yes. But don't believe the times prior to 16/8 - they got corrupted. That's why I'm trying to get new evidence from Archives.

Franek - as I said, I wish I could offer something positive.

1. Patrol base? I would bet that while we were climbing, we were ordered onto Raid 47. So possibly 25 min to Selsey? I certainly don't recall hanging around!!

2. Logbook? No - God knows when I wrote that. I was hospitalised & then on 'sick leave' until late September. I'm surprised I put so much info in there so long after. As to the time - it was something stuck in my mind but, as I say, it was just as likely to have been 1240 - joining up the 40 (twenty TO) with the one, giving 1340. I am quite happy to be put right on this, & would much sooner believe the ground repoting than mine. After all, as you're abandoning an aircraft, you can be excused for a bit of inaccuracy?

So sorry that I can't set matters right.

= Tim

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Tim


I believe that the Hurricane "in marshes nr Thorney Island" at 13.50 refers to your machine. The incident is timed at 13.50, but this can sometimes be the time the incident report came into the control centre. I need to check back to my primary source on this, but if not the time of the incident then it must have been shortly before 13.50 if that helps any?

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

So it looks that Tim is just too modest with his approach to own memory!
Tim, personally, I would rather believe that you somehow learned the time, be it a glance on a clock, a word from the people down on the ground, who helped you, or perhaps a document that you have seen back on the Squadron. Please note, that Wick (if it was Wick of course) claimed his victory at 1335, so there is still some inaccuracy. The base patrol - I can imagine you forget about it, it was a daily routine, nothing to bother with.
I am very glad of this discussion as it developed.
We have some documents, we have a witness, but we still have problems to establish what actually had happened. A nail to the coffin to those who believe such tie ups are easy.

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

So where have you been all these years, Andy, while everyone else has been going grey at the gills??

Help any? I would have thought that it put a seal on something? But I skipped over the description of marshes near Thorney Is & didn't even register that you wrote it. Might have saved myself a load of trouble.

So these were marshes, were they?? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...o04/web/WW.jpg Hope that's not giving anything away??

= Tim

PS How did I know the time, Franek? I quote Norman Gelb....
"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...le2600x295.jpg"

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

A very progressive disscussion with interesting advance in time(s). I am very glad the squadron entries, new memories and ground reports bring needed advance. Thanks for that.
However I am surprised with such time scattering regarding the final of P3173 (1.05, 1.50pm). And the „marshes“ time is a lot of minutes after last (know) German Abschussmeldung.
Andy, will the check of primary source earn on this please ?
Tim, is there a possibility your mother mentioned / watch the time of the fight or b/o too ?

Michal

Re: 1 Sqn on 16 August 1940
 

Michal - Mother said she watched an action. No time. Knowing Mothers.....?......but within a very short time, she 'knew' it was me because the ambulance asked for Mrs Elkington - which was her previous name.

When she got to the Hospital, she was told that I was dead. But that was the previous chap in my bed. Thankfully!! She finally got in to see me, but didn't recognise me because my efforts to get out without disconnecting had somewhat rearranged my face!!
Had a thought later this pm - if it were me landing that was the crux, one would, of course, add 10 mins to 1340 for the descent at 20ft/sec???

Great view of the coastline from that height - lovely day - but thank you, Fred Berry, for saving my life.