He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hi everybody,

I'm looking for more information about a He 111 that crashlanded in or around Ham in France on the 15th of June 1940.

Thanks in advance,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

According to Peter Cornwell's book, the only losses of He 111s were at Jussey (2) and between Mornay & Champlitte.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Thanks for your reply, Chris.

Both places you mentioned are way off, so I presume the date on the picture is wrong.

I'll try to contact a historical society in the area to get the correct date.

Kind regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hello

No He 111 in Noyon area or in the whole "Département de l'Oise" at this time.

Regards

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Thanks Pilot2.

Could you also check the Somme Département? That's where Ham is located in.

Kind Regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hello

I don't know if there is a link with this one but it's a picture taken in Ham

http://www.hiboox.com/lang-fr/image....g=66scapk8.jpg



Regards

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

At first glance I would say it's the same aircraft. But I'm in the office right now. I'll post my pictures here too as soon I get home.

Nice find by the way. What searchstring did you use in Google to find this one?

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

bugger,

I recently acquired a different photo of this on eBay, but do not yet have it in hand. The clue to its identity is probably going to be the a/c code, which I haven't been able to yet read--only the Yellow "E." Am most interested in getting this aircraft identified as well. Where does your date come from? A handwritten note on the back of a photo? If so, this aircraft could have come down much earlier than that date as it is obviously undergoing salvage.

Regards,

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Here are the pictures I have. (One is a bit blurry). They are taken from a completely different angle then the one Pilot2 found. I think nevertheless that it's the same aircraft. Unfortunately no identification visible.

The lamppost and the electricity pole at the back of the aircraft seem to be the same (but on my pictures there seems to be roadsigns attached to the post) and the three to the left hand side of the aircraft (from the cockpit's point of view) also appears on my first picture.

The name of the pub in the back is "Goutte d'Or", which can be translated as "golden drop (of liquor)".

The first picture has "15.06.1940 - German reconnaissance plane in Ham" stamped at the back in purple ink.

The second has "Shot down He 111 in the Noyon area" written in pencil on the back.

I've sent out two e-mails to local societies (one that collects old postcards, the other a club of militaria collectors) asking assistance in determining the date and place. No reply yet.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Looking at all of the pictures, I think that :

- the plane crashed in the direct vicinity, but didn't end at this spot by itself (lamppost & electricity pole should have been broken).

- the picture that Pilot2 found is older. It still shows a lot of debry on the road. My 2 pictures don't. Also road signs, that were probably knocked over by the plane, have been put back on the electricity pole.

- the houses in the area show all some or more extend of damage. Some of it may however been caused by the German army when they invaded that area.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hi,

the second character could be "1".

Regards

Robert

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Yes, you could be right, Robert. That would mean that it would be a KG 53 (A1+E?) or a KG 55 (G1+E?) machine.

Regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

I have more information from somebody who lives in that area:

- The machine was shot down between the 11th and the 14th of May of 1940 and not in June as stated on one of the pictures. (Possibly the plane was still there in June when the Germans invaded the area, hence the confusion about the date).

- It crashlanded in the Ham - Eppeville area.

Does anybody have more info on reason of crash, unit and faith of crew,...???

Thanks in advance,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

If it should have been between the 11th and 14th of May over Ham, it is very unlikely that it was either KG53 or KG55. Both operated much more to the east, although KG53 did attack targets over northern France on May 10. But until the 15th KG53, as far as I know, did not operate further west than Sedan. Only on May 18 I have a KG53 loss in the Amiens area. KG55 operated way East and over central France.

If the second character is indeed a 1 LG1 is more likely, since this unit operated much more over this sector of northern France and southern Belgium. Still, mostly over the Lille area, so not much certainty on that either.

The bomber unit - if it was a bomber! - most active over this area during these days was KG54, but then the unit code was B3. And there is no reconnaissance unit with its code ending on 1.

To be continued, Pieter

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Thanks for this info, Pieter.

I already checked the "Kampfgeschwader 54" book of Siegfried Radtke. No losses seems to match this one.

Unfortunately I don't have Perter Cornwell's new book "The Battle of France - Then and now ..." (yet), but if some mebers do, could you please check for this loss. It was between the 11th and the 14th of May of 1940 in the Eppeville - Ham area.

Thanks in advance,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hello
Sadden I use a translation software, I do not speak English!!!
I have just found your topic concerning the crash of HEY 111 during the day of June 15th, 1940! I make at present searches(researches) concerning one HEY 111 who(which) it is crashed in my region in Alsace, brings(shoots) down by the GC II / 5 by the following pilots(drivers) Svetlik Ladislav, Klan Jean, Monraisse Marie Hubert, Duda Joseph, Hebrard? Fat Georges which(who) piloted Curtiss H-75.
I know that this day of 15/06/40, 3 HEY 111 of 3. / KG53 at least one " mine ") or other were brought(shot) down, but I have no information concerning the registration of these devices! The crew(equipage) of this device (that of my region) is the crew(equipage) of the Hptm Schwarz Bernhard ...... Have you information??? Or better photos??
I thank you in advance for having taken time to read this A message soon

En français pour ceux qui n'ont pas compris mon message !!

Bonjour
Désole j'utilise un logiciel de traduction , je ne parle pas anglais !!!
Je viens de trouver votre topic concernant le crash de HE 111 dans la journée du 15 juin 1940 ! Je fais actuellement des recherches concernant un HE 111 qui c'est crashé dans ma région en Alsace , abattu par le GC II/5 par les pilotes suivants Svetlik Ladislav, Klan Jean, Monraisse Marie Hubert, Duda Joseph, Hebrard ? , Gras Georges qui pilotaient des Curtiss H-75. Je sais que ce jour du 15/06/40, 3 HE 111 du 3./KG53 au moins un « le mien » )
ou autres ont étés abattus , mais je n'ai aucuns renseignements concernant l'immatriculation de ces appareils ! L'équipage de cet appareil (celui de ma région) est l'équipage du Hptm Schwarz Bernhard......Avez vous des infos ??? Ou mieux des photos ??
Je vous remercie par avance d'avoir pris le temps de lire ce message
A bientôt

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hello Sadden I use a translation software, I do not speak English!!!
I have just found your topic concerning the crash of HEY 111 during the day of June 15th, 1940! I make at present searches(researches) concerning one HEY 111 who(which) it is crashed in my region in Alsace, brings(shoots) down by the GC II / 5 by the following pilots(drivers) Svetlik Ladislav, Klan Jean, Monraisse Marie Hubert, Duda Joseph, Hebrard? Fat Georges which(who) piloted Curtiss H-75.
I know that this day of 15/06/40, 3 HEY 111 of 3. / KG53 at least one " mine ") or other were brought(shot) down, but I have no information concerning the registration of these devices! The crew(equipage) of this device (that of my region) is the crew(equipage) of the Hptm Schwarz Bernhard ......
Have you information??? Or better photos??
I thank you in advance for having taken time to read this A message soon

en français pour ceux a qui j'ai fait mal a la tête ......

Bonjour
Désole j'utilise un logiciel de traduction , je ne parle pas anglais !!!
Je viens de trouver votre topic concernant le crash de HE 111 dans la journée du 15 juin 1940 ! Je fais actuellement des recherches concernant un HE 111 qui c'est crashé dans ma région en Alsace , abattu par le GC II/5 par les pilotes suivants Svetlik Ladislav, Klan Jean, Monraisse Marie Hubert, Duda Joseph, Hebrard ? , Gras Georges qui pilotaient des Curtiss H-75. Je sais que ce jour du 15/06/40, 3 HE 111 du 3./KG53 au moins un « le mien » )
ou autres ont étés abattus , mais je n'ai aucuns renseignements concernant l'immatriculation de ces appareils ! L'équipage de cet appareil (celui de ma région) est l'équipage du Hptm Schwarz Bernhard......Avez vous des infos ??? Ou mieux des photos ??
Je vous remercie par avance d'avoir pris le temps de lire ce message
A bientôt

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

3./KG53 Heinkel He111H. Reportedly shot down by fighters near Jussey. Oberlt H. Wegner, Fw F. Fern, Uffz J. Hertle, Uffz P. Kraft, and Gefr H. Thiele unhurt. Aircraft a write-off.

3./KG53 Heinkel He111H. Shot down by fighters near Jussey and possibly that attacked by Sgt Salès and Adj Dugoujon of GC II/5 between Langres and Vesoul. Hptmn B. Schwarz (Staffelkapitän), Lt Schoeppler, Oberfw F. Weidenhammer, Fw A. Burger, and Uffz K. Berninger killed. Aircraft a write-off.

3./KG53 Heinkel He111H. Shot down by Capt Monraisse, Capt Duda, S/Lt Klan, Lt Hebrard, Adj Gras, and Sgt Svetlik of GC II/5 and broke up over ‘Le Puiseau’ between Mornay and Champlitte, north-east of Dijon, 7.15 a.m. Uffz K. Berrang, Uffz O. Haas, and Uffz H. Deringer killed. Oberfw H. Röthemeier baled out wounded, and Fw H. Mayer baled out unhurt, both captured on landing near Fontaine-Française. Aircraft a write-off.


Source: The Battle of France Then & Now p476

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hello,

I'm still trying to get the ID of this plane. Some new info is that it has the number "27", probably in yellow, painted on the extreme forward panel of the fuselage nose on both sides. Inside the wing panel, where the wing has been removed, appears to be the W.Nr. 3627, painted in black. My He111 book (Griehl) says that this would be an H-5 or H-6. Does anyone know if the manufacture date of this W.Nr is consistent with a crash during the French Campaign? One of my photos also says (handwritten in German) a reconnaissance aircraft photographed in the Ham area of France. Did we ever determine which "Ham" in France this is? Are Ham and Noyen close together?

Does anyone recognize the unit, perhaps, by the fact that the last two digits of the W.Nr. were painted of the forward nose panel? This is probably a unit system, and other a/c in the Staffel or Gruppe probably used the same pattern.

Still determined to solve the ID mystery of this well-photographed He111.

Regards.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hi Larry,

By my reckoning 3627 could have been built Nov-Dec 1940, based on build dates for others around that WNr and sub-type.

Regards,

David

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hello

Another view found in ebay

http://cgi.ebay.de/Foto-abgesch-FLUG...QQcmdZViewItem

Regards

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

-> Larry,

according to a french local that I was able to contact, the He 111 was brought down in the Ham area between the 11th & 14th of mai 1940.

All of the pictures were taken at Eppeville, a town between Ham & Noyon (Somme Dep.), where the aircraft apparently was on "display".

The location of where these pictures were taken is pretty much certain, because you can see a pub called "La Goutte D'Or" in the pictures I've posted and although the pub (unfortunately) isn't there anymore today , the building itself still excists.

The pace is next to the crossroads between the "boulevard de la liberté" & "l'avenue André-Delorme".

Kind regards,
Rudi.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

David,

Thanks for your input on the W.Nr. Obviously this can't be the correct W.Nr. for this aircraft. We'll have to look at it more closely. See my PM.

Rudi, thanks for updating us on your findings. At least now we've greatly narrowed our search, and I'm sure that we'll find the correct identity of this one.

Does anyone else have any info on this one?

Regards,

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hi Larry,

Just sent two PMs, first one went but second bounced back due to you having a full quota of messages. I'll try and send second again later!

Regards,

David

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hi...

Just noticed this additional photo, which I think came from one of Ed West's posting from many a long month ago.

Regards...

Paul

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Paul,

Thanks for the additional photo. I think that this one ranks as one of most photographed He111s during the WC. This is about the 15th photo I've seen of it, but, ironicially, we still don't know the unit codes. With the help of Dr. David Ransome, we have settled on the W.Nr. as being 5627, which makes it an H-3.

Any further input on this one is welcome.

Regards,

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hello

New pictures

http://nsa06.casimages.com/img/2009/...3341980245.jpg

http://nsa06.casimages.com/img/2009/...3524904037.jpg

Regards

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Now identified as that downed on May 10, 1940, as follows:

9./KG1 Heinkel He111H-3 (5627). Port engine damaged in attacks by P/O Parrott and Sgt Townsend of No.607 Squadron during sortie to attack airfields near Albert and starboard undercarriage collapsed on attempting forced-landing south-east of St Simon-Clastres airfield 3.00 p.m. BF Obergefr Aloys Freisberg captured wounded in head, admitted to Henri-Martin hospital in St-Quentin, FF Lt Kurt Neumann, BO Fw Hans Oppermann, BS Flgr Heinrich Pümpel and BM Flgr Willi Pfeiffer captured unhurt – all later released. Aircraft V4+ET 100% write-off.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Hi Peter,

See this IWM photo !

C 1527
http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/med...e/C_001527.jpg

PHOTOGRAPHER: Hensser H (Mr)
Royal Air Force official photographer
TITLE: ROYAL AIR FORCE: FRANCE, 1939-1940.
COLLECTION NUMBER: 4700-11
PERIOD: Second World War
DATE: 10 May 1940
ACCESS: Unrestricted
COLOUR / BLACK & WHITE: Black and white
TYPE: Official photograph
DESCRIPTION: Sightseers gather as RAF officers inspect crashed Heinkel 111H, 'V4-DT', of 9/KG1, which crash-landed near Albert. This was one of seven aircraft belonging to III/KG1 which were shot down by Hawker Hurricanes of Nos. 85 and 607 Squadrons RAF on the afternoon of 10 May 1940. The crew surrendered to the unarmed keeper of a British Great War military cemetery nearby.

Best regards.

Bernard.

Re: He 111 crash at Ham-Noyon Area, France
 

Thanks Bernard,

A well-photographed wreck downed on May 10, 1940, as follows:

9./KG1 Heinkel He111H. Shot down by Hurricanes of No.85 and 607 Squadrons during sortie to attack airfields and belly-landed near British WW I cemetery at Albert 2.50 p.m. BM Fw Werner Wappler captured wounded – later released, BO Oberlt Hermann Braune, FF Fw Walter Schön, BF Uffz August Gottschalk, and BS Flgr Emil Ernst all captured unhurt. Aircraft V4+DT 100% write-off.