Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hi to all,

Can anyone identitify this No.611 Sqd Spitfire loss in France, believed to be around 1941/42. The aircraft code letters are B-FY and on the cowling is painted "Paddy IV". Does anyone know the name of the pilot? Any help greatly appreciated.

Regards

Melvin

http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com/

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Melvin,

There were two Spitfires with FY-B that were shot down within a relative short timespan.
These were EN133, lost on 14 March 43, W/Cdr J.H. Slater killed (Rodeo 188 to Abbeville airfield) and EN562, lost on 30 May 43, Lt. R.T. Tradin killed (Ramrod 81 to Mondeville rail-yards).
In both instances the Spitfires were engaged by Fw-190s.

I have no idea if one of these aircraft had "Paddy IV" as its name.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hi Melvin,

1) You are right it should be 1941/42 period. See A1 roundel on the fuselage what was valid till 21 May 1942.
2) The killed airman inside the cockpit looks like an officer. There is no visible Sgt or W/O chevron.
3) The leaves seems to be hale, so I think it could be summer or early autumn.

The sign on the cowling is a personal one. Unfortunately not a dedication and there is no possibility to identify a/c from a list of presentation Spitfires.
I was asked a few years ago by my & your French friend Laurent for a identification of this Spitfire. The possibility of F/O Dexter´s a/c is excluded ?
At any rate it should be a/c what was downed in Boulogne s/M area because of the source of picture.

Regards,
Michal

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

What's interesting about the picture is the fact that the code seems to be the wrong way around. Though not indicative of anything specific, all the pictures of 611 I've seen have the squadron code before the roundel and the aircraft after. There is even a picture of a "FY-B" in Hunt's Twenty-One Squadrons, and it is in that order (and yes, I have checked that it is the correct side of the aircraft).


Could this be indicative of anything?

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Altogether it was standard on the 611 Sqn Mark Vs in second half of 1941 year. This kind of code letter sequence you can see from time to time on a/c of other Sqn too.

Michal

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hi,
Photo is very sad to see.

However, the tail band also places the a/c crash after November 40.

So as to the camoflage, can it be said to be the Dark Green and Ocean Grey or the earlier Dark Green and Dark Earth colours ?

Quote from "Camoflage & Markings" text to profile of FY-B EN133
"Standard day fighter scheme from mid May 1942. Type C and C.1 roundels, 24 inch square standard fin flash. Sky spinner, 18 inch fuselage band, code and aircraft letters. Introduced on production lines from 21st May 1942. Ocean Grey and Dark Green, most commonly used".

I have no idea as to where these "Fatal" came down, someone else can come up with the crash place perhaps.
Mk. IX unless otherwise noted.
From the "Dieppe Raid" F/Sgt. Vilboux (Free French) in BS179.
Sept 16th 42, Sgt Walker in BS170.
November 2nd 42, F/O. Fulford DFC in BR622.
November 2nd 42, Sgt. Keens in BS113.
November 29th 42, F/O. Helmore in BS112.
February 5th 43, S/Ldr. Armstrong DFC in BS425.
March 14th 43, S/Ldr Slater AFC in EN133 "B". [was a presentation a/c]
March 14th 43, Sgt. McLay RAAF in BS510.
April 18th 43, P/O. North in EN571.
May 14th 43, Sgt. Clark in EN558.
May 30th 43, Lt. Tradin (Norwegian) "B" in EN562.
June 11th 43, F/O. Lindsay in EN570 "J".
August 23rd 43, S/Ldr. Davies in EP393 a Mk. Vb.
August 23rd 43, P/O. Gielstrup (Danish) in P8545 a Mk.Vb.[was a presentation a/c].
November 9th 43, F/Sgt. J. C. Bevan in EE732 a Mk.Vc.
ref is FCL vol 2
Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

P/O Gielstrup shot down by flak of Den Helder, cf.
http://www.danishww2pilots.dk/profil...?alpha=g&id=28

Mikkel Plannthin

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hi Mikkel,

The Paddy IV is not P/O Gielstrup´s a/c. He was s/d in second half of 1943 what is in discrepance with the A1 roundel on fuselage, and he crashed into the sea.

Regards,
Michal

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Michal,
I know. Just wanted to supply info in the man, as Alex included him in the list.

Mikkel

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello Millel,

Yes I understand and that clears him from the pilot in the photo.
Thank you for the link too.

Question to Michal,

Can we be certain that Spitfire Mk IX's did not carry the roundel shown in the photo ?
If they did not then it only leaves either Bevan and Davies.

Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Alex,
As I understand it, S/ldr Davies was not at any time Co of 611 ? Only flying with the sqdn.
also, that EP393 was ditched ?
Davies was also made a PoW on 23/8/43........

John Bevan was s/d near Bethune ..........

Have I seen a photo somewhere of a Spitfire with Paddy IV ? (The old memory is going these days and driving me crackers!!)

I have a full list of 611sq fatalities linked to individual Spitfires but, cant see as it would help here ?

Mervyn.

Afterthought edit: I could post the serials of 40 611sqdn a/c destroyed between 1941 and 1944 would you guys like to eliminate whatever you can and see what may be left ?

Mervyn.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

hi,

This photo has been found several years ago into the WWII records of the town of Boulogne sur mer. A link was first made with another Paddy, Paddy III, a hurricane said by Flypast to have been flown by Kayne (profil published in a Flypast edition). Nothing has been found.
However, some months ago, an inhabitant of Samer, have said us that he has had the vision ,when he was a boy, during the war,of a crashed a/c with a dead pilot, an arm along the cockpit (as shown on the photo) . It was into a wood, close to Samer. Unfortunatly, since, this witness is dead and i have been unable to find the site without him. I specify that this man has never seen the photo of Paddy IV.

A pilot of the 611 squadron has his grave into Samer cemetery :
F/O P G Dexter (spitfire Mk Vb P8581),; He collided the 14 july 1941 with Sgt J W Panter (54 squadron) just above Samer, some local inhabitants still remember this collision during this particular day for us : 14 juillet, France national day. However, for FCL, Dexter has baled out...

Wise62

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

I find an interesting link with F/O. Victor Stephenson Neill RAFVR, who failed to return on 4th May 1943, while flying in Spitfire EN567.

He is thought to have been in collision and subsequently crashed. He has no known grave, commemorated at Runnymede Panel 132 Age 24.

He was also 611 squadron's longest serving pilot, being affectionately known by all as, 'PADDY'

Mervyn.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Alex,

1) The 611 Squadron used Mark IXs from July 1942 and there is only very small possibility some Sqn a/c had A1 roundel on the fuselage, valid till 21 May 1942. Of course there was a delay with application new roundels but about weeks not months. I know pictures of the 611 IXs made only a few days after Jubilee time too, and they were all with new C1 roundels which should be applicated from the first days of service.
2) The letter code on the right side of port side roundel is a "standard" shape for the Squadron on 1941 time. Like on the photograph.

Regards,
Michal

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hi,

I think that it's impossible that the pilot of Paddy IV has not a known grave, somewhere in the CWGC cemeteries of Pas de Calais area.
He his one of the 611 squadron KIA pilots buried here, in France.
He is not MIA, as the photo shows.

Wise62

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

A very interesting point..............but......I was not definate in my opinion !! Hmmmmmm ?
Mervyn.

Mervyn

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

hi,

seven 611 squadron pilots, KIA, have their graves in Boulogne/St omer, France :

- Ralph Kenyon Crompton, F/o - KIA 02/06/1940 - N3064 - Etaples cemetery
- Martin Kean McHugh, sgt - KIA 03/07/1941 - R7293 - Longuenesse cemetery
- Peter Grenfell Dexter, F/o - sd 14/07/1941 - P8581 - Samer cemetery
- James Ronald Sutton - F/O - KIA 23/07/1941 - W3246 - St Pol cemetery
- Anthony Carey Hill - f/O- KIA 27/10/1941 - W3838 - Boulogne sur mer cemetery
- Robert Maxwell McClay Flt/sgt - KIA 14/03/1943 - BS510- Etaples cemetery
- John Curtis Bevan Flt/sgt - KIA 09/11/1943 - EE732 (Vc) Longuenesse cemetery - Bevan certainly crashed down at Colembert.

There are 4 F/O.

Wise62

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

The Spitfire in the photo features early style windscreen with external bullet proof glass panel. This excludes any Mk IXs. It also excludes EE732 and W3838 which, although Mk Vs, were built in batches of aircraft with late style windscreens. The Sky band around the fuselage excludes any aircraft before December 1940 (as was already mentioned here).

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Is there any unknow graves in that area?Sorry not trying to be morbid but maybe he could not be Identified and buried as such.
It is just a thought.
Rick

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello,
From the Hut-six site there are 42 from 611 Sqdn who gave all.
BANKS, JR 811104 31/10/1939
BEVAN, JC 1314667 09/11/1943
BRUCE, AEA 740984 28/02/1940
CAREY-HILL, A 85938 27/10/1941
CLAXTON, JL 903471 07/05/1941
CLEAVER, RB 40889 19/06/1944
CLIFFORD, JT 52615 28/07/1944
CROMPTON, RK 90361 02/06/1940
CROOM-JOHNSON, OP 91109 30/05/1940
DALES, WP 955028 05/11/1941
DEXTER, PG 41680 14/07/1941
FRIDAY, AH 119493 30/08/1942
FULFORD, D 63787 02/11/1942
GIELSTRUP, JH 151006 23/08/1943
GOULDING, H 334035 25/07/1940
GRAINGER, WE 1164137 21/07/1941
HELMORE, PE 46704 29/11/1942
HEMINGWAY, L 742467 10/07/1941
JOHNSTON, RA 86369 09/07/1941
KING, LV 120930 16/09/1944
KRAUS, GW 1313571 02/11/1942
LAMB, EJ 88434 16/08/1941
LINDSAY, GR 117503 11/06/1943
LITTLE, TD 90364 02/06/1940
LOCK, ES 81642 03/08/1941
NEILL, VS 127166 04/05/1943
NORTH, J 139423 18/04/1943
PATTISON, KC 742457 13/10/1940
POLLARD, PSC 41462 22/06/1941
REEVES, JF 86670 21/10/1941
ROEPER-BOSCH, JWY 89295 21/10/1941
SADLER, HS 44825 05/02/1941
SHEPHERD, FER 811129 11/09/1940
SLATER, JH 33174 14/03/1943
SMITH, NJ 102563 21/10/1941
STANLEY, DA 83271 25/02/1941
SUTTON, JRG 90758 23/07/1941
THOMAS, DW 748448 18/05/1941
TOWNS, SW 1334105 06/04/1944
WALKER, PA 1261990 16/09/1942
WALTON, AJP 1385958 05/07/1942
WHEELER, VCM 566827 05/07/1942

Note that McHugh, Hill and McClay are not in the Hut -six list for 611 Sqn.

Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Rick, a quite number ! Unfortunately.

Michal

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

I would say the man has W/O badge, visible just where are cockpit door hinges.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello Franek,

If this pilot was a W/O then from the list of names in the Hut-six list via CWGC the only W/O is -
W/O. Victor Cecil Mayo Wheeler who was lost on the 5th July 1942.
This could well be the pilot as - all that is in the CWGC page except names of both parents and widow is -

Remembered with honour
LEICESTER (GILROES) CEMETERY
Sect E E Grave 239

So would he fit details already given in the thread ?

Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello Alex,

Quote from notes I have here,

V.C.M.Wheeler, Warrant Officer RAF. W.E.Mech 566827.

Passenger killed in crash of Magister near Kenley on the 5th July 1942, age 24. from Leicester. Same burial details as you indicate.
Of course we know that 611 were opperating from Kenley at that time.........

So, definitely not our man.

Mervyn.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello Mervyn,

Thanks for the update .
I did wonder about the fact there was a Grave in the UK.
You have cleared that mystery up for me at least.

Still leaves the question of the pilot in the photo open .

Thanks
Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello again Alex,

I have a feeling that this one may just beat us. (for the moment anyway!)

I do have a photo of 'a' FY-B Spitfire, in the far background of others which are MKix, there is no chance of the serial id however, as I don't record Spitfire camouflage / colors etc, I have no idea of when various size markings etc were applied / used.

My photo shows a bigger port side fuselage roundel so, I doubt 'my' FY-B would be the correct one anyway.........

Regards all,

Mervyn.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

It is probably EN133, featured in several publicity photos taken when No. 611 converted to Mk IXs. Although EN133 FY-B was lost over France (S/Ldr J.H. Slater killed, Rodeo 188 on 14 March 1943), it is definitely not the aeroplane in the photo we are discussing here.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hi VoyTech !

Thanks for that, you are right.

I have since found several publications which feature this aircraft including 'Spitfire at War' Alfred Price, which shows a close-up shot from exactly the same photo I have.

There is also an air to air shot in 'Spitfire Remembered' Philip Moyes.

Mervyn.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

... and taken during various periods as we can see from the art below the cockpit. White blank disc was later completed with the art (Churchill ?).

Michal

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Anyone by any chance know the identity of the presenter of EN133? She carried a 12" diameter badge below the windscreen on the left side that has some kind of a design in it. I would be MOST grateful for any information on this a/c.

Thanks!

JH

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hi chaps,

I am not an Spitfire expert as Michal but thanks to Mr. Google I can add:

FLIGHT SERGEANT JOHN C BEVAN joined 611 Squadron at Biggin Hill, Kent, in June 1943 flying operationally until his untimely death on 9 November 1943, when he was flying Spitfire Vc EE732 FY:X and was shot down by flak near Bethune.
http://www.611squadronrauxaf.co.uk/n...03/070103.html

Davies - location: North Sea - 5 km West from Den Helder...
http://www.nimh.nl/nl/images/1943%20...ery%20D_1.html

Pavel

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello again,

Has the Spitfire MK been confirmed as yet ?

As for the markings, Due to the a/c wearing the tail band it has to have been after the end of November 1940.

And the wide outer yellow ring to the fuselage roundel. Did any Mk IX's wear this roundel ?

Both EN133 and EN562 were 1943 losses, My opinion is that this was a loss before then. Between Nov 40 and June 42.

P7774 IIa - Penning - 28-4-41
R7209 Va - Pollard - 22-6-41
R7349 Vb - Buys - 24-6-41
R7293 Va - McHugh - 3-7-41 - "Sans Tache"
R7277 Va - Feeley - 8-7-41
W3325 Vb - Johnston - 9-7-41
P8539 Vb - Hemingway -10-7-41
P8581 Vb - Dexter - 14-8-41
W3329 Vb - Grainger - 21-7-41 - "Spirit of Uruguay"
W3246 Vb - Sutton - 23-7-41- "Devon Squadron"
W3257 Vb - Lock - 3-8-41
W3567 Vb - Lamb - 16-8-41
W3227 Vb - Roper-Bosch - 21-10-41
W3327 Vb - Reeves - 21-10-41 - "Horsham & District"
W3515 Vb - Smith - 21-10-41
W3838 Vb - Carey-Hill - 27-10-41 - "Valpariso"
AB984 Vb - Dales - 5-11-41 - "West Borneo III"

Some of these I list have no known grave.


The narrow yellow outer ring to the roundel was brought in around May/June of 42 and yellow leading edge to wings was brought in around August/Sept 41.

Any one know of any other "FY-B" 's within the time I mention ?

All for now
Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

I'm still desperately seeking a clear photo of the round badge that EN133 carried below the windscreen on on the LH side. In the one fuzzy photo I have I can also convince myself that there may be a name painted on the fuel tank armor plating, angled up at about 45 degrees. The photo is just too fuzzy to glean more detail.

Anyone know of a better photo of this a/c?

JH

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

As Voytech pointed out much earlier, this has an "external" type armoured windscreen which excludes the possibility that this is a Mk IX and also excludes SOME batches of Mk V's.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello Andy,
Thank you for the heads up re Voytech's post , I overlooked it.
From the list I placed in an earlier post, (now corrected and serials added ) If the Presentation a/c are left off then we have the following a/c-pilots left.
P7774 IIa - Pennings - 28-4-41 - In sea ?
R7209 Va - Pollard - 22-6-41
R7349 Vb - Buys - 24-6-41
R7277 Va - Feeley - 8-7-41 - NKG
W3325 Vb - Johnston - 9-7-41
P8539 Vb - Hemingway -10-7-41 - NKG
P8581 Vb - Dexter - 14-7-41
W3257 Vb - Lock - 3-8-41 - NKG
W3567 Vb - Lamb - 16-8-41 - In sea -NKG
W3227 Vb - Roper-Bosch - 21-10-41 - In sea
W3515 Vb - Smith - 21-10-41 - In sea - NKG

Of the above the following were
Penning - Dutch
Buys - Dutch
Feeley - RNZAF
Dexter - South African
Could the sleeve insignia have some reference to these men ? For example did the Dutch aircrew wear the Orange triangle marking on their sleeves and if so did it matter which way up it was ?

Also with regard to the a/c camouflage pattern, can it be cleared up if it is "A" or "B" pattern ? and would this be the reason also that the "FY" is aft on the fuselage side rather than forward was that the general practice ?

Only Pennings above has an even number.

All for now
Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Not sure what you mean. IIRC all Mk Vs were built after the 'B' pattern was dropped, so they were all 'A' pattern by default.
Also, I don't think Dutch airmen wore any nationality ID on their sleeves other than the regulation shoulder patch.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello VoyTech,
Thank you for the reply.
Yes you are correct, from January 1941 on production lines only Scheme "A".
The question was about the "FY" squadron code being before or after the fuselage roundel and if the camouflage scheme had any bearing on it. This if so would I thought help with the aircraft serial number, as it could be an odd or even number.
The question is now longer relevant due to your reply. Unless it is Pennings IIa in the photo ? But still it would not help as the number is even so scheme "A" anyway.

Also with regard to the airmans sleeve Natioality ID patch. It just looked to me to be an inverted triangle and I wondered if, as these would have been hand sewn on by the airman themselves, if they may have sometimes sewn them on inverted.
You say the only Nationality ID was the shoulder patch.

Again Thank you
Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Don't recall about this particular number, but the rule wasn't that simple. In some production batches it was 'B' scheme on even serials.

I'm sure Dutch experts are more qualified to answer that but I think when you're in uniform you wear what you're allowed to and I don't think allied personnel were allowed to wear any other national emblems than the regulation shoulder patches.

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Hello VoyTech,
Perhaps I was not clear in my question and responce.So please bear with me.

Originally I put the question
"with regard to the a/c camouflage pattern, can it be cleared up if it is "A" or "B" pattern ? and would this be the reason also that the "FY" is aft on the fuselage side rather than forward was that the general practice ?"

[example A/c seen with port side fuselage codes FYOB and also seen with port side fuselage codes BOFY].

You replied correctly that
"IIRC all Mk Vs were built after the 'B' pattern was dropped, so they were all 'A' pattern by default."

I then responded with
"Yes you are correct, from January 1941 on production lines only Scheme "A".
The question was about the "FY" squadron code being before or after the fuselage roundel and if the camouflage scheme had any bearing on it. This if so would I thought help with the aircraft serial number, as it could be an odd or even number.
The question is now longer relevant due to your reply. Unless it is Pennings IIa in the photo ? But still it would not help as the number is even so scheme "A" anyway."

[Pennings a/c was a Mk.IIa serial P7774].

You have now said
"the rule wasn't that simple. In some production batches it was 'B' scheme on even serials."

With this latest reply are you still refering only to mk.V's ? as this seems to contradict the 14th January 1941 edict that ALL future Spitfires had "A" scheme camouflage only. OR do you perhaps suggest that Pennings a/c had the "B" type camouflage pattern ?

I in no way wish to upset or to labour the point but am just trying to arrive at a way to ID the aircraft in the photo by offering ideas as to how perhaps to go forward and arrive at the ID.

All the very best
Alex

Re: Crashed Spitfire photo identification No.611 Sqd
 

Alex, I referred to the Mk II you mentioned. At the time when 'A' and 'B' were still used alternatively on consecutive aircraft there was no rule saying "'A' on even serials, 'B' on odd serials". In some Mk I/Mk II batches 'A' scheme was applied to aircraft with even serials, in other batches it was 'B' scheme on even serials. To know what scheme was applied to a particular early Mk I/II you need to know the rule that applied to that particular batch.
After 'B' scheme was dropped altogether it became immaterial whether the serial was even or odd - it was always 'A' scheme.