info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

On a Luftwaffe Collector's siteFound some pictures on the internet of a Stab KG 51 He111 9K+AA aircraft, you might have seen them before. Have some questions about the aircraft:

A - According to the source this the aircraft in wich Joseph Kammhuber who was KG 51's Geschwader Commandant early 1940. Is it Kammhuber's aircraft?

B - Some questions about the logo:
1 The background is a shield, what was the background colour?
2 The Logo is made up from 3 other logo's: the KG Edelweiss at the bottom, I Gruppe upper left, but the logo upper right is a question for me. The backgroundcolour is different than the logo upper left (yellow?) but it appears to be a I Gruppe sign again. Anybody has a better picture of the logo, in colour perhaps?

C - Is the third digit (A) in green or blue?

D - See the backscript of the pictures for info about location (sorry, but my German is very poor). What is the possible date this aircraft crashed?

groeten!!!!

PS: collector's site: click here (anybody of you happen to be the blogger?)

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

missing picture

http://bp2.blogger.com/_6cCo5oLDQCc/...162923474B.jpg

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Yes, this is almost certainly the KG51 Geschwaderkommodore aircraft of KAMMHUBER. However, despite what the caption says IMO it is not the aircraft in which he was brought down on June 3, 1940, for that was a Junkers Ju88, the unit having started to exchange its Heinkel He111s for the new type the previous March. The aircraft shown is probably the original superceded aircraft awaiting disposal.

Other members of this forum will be able to offer you better advice than I on the three Gruppe emblems shown and the possible background colour of the shield, but the third digit would have been Stabs Green.

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hello 'Foute Man' and Peter,
I just checked out your new book Peter, on the BoF, and got a bit confused as the back side writing of the photo, translated into English, reads:

“During the last mission over France our Kommandeur, Oberst, Kammhuber, was shot down, we found his aircraft dismantled at a shelter by an airport. 1940”

.....and your description clearly indicates a Ju 88 when describing how the aircraft was downed as the He 111 did not have any dive brakes.

The writing on the photo can of course be wrong regarding which aircraft he was in when downed.

Regarding the emblem:
This is the emblem of Stab/KG 51 as it is published in "Luftwaffe Embleme 1939-1945", Ketley and Rolfe, Bernard & Graefe Verlag.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...KG51emblem.jpg

This can give the indication that the upper right emblem had a red background colour.
The large shield on which the three emblems are located on the He 111 is more difficult. A darker shade of Blue??? Only a guess from my side.

Regards
Goran

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hello,

While probably the commander's previous aircraft, 9K+AA was apparently not flown by him at the time of its forced landing. According to Gillet's "Les Victorires de l'Aviation de Chasse Francaise" Vol 1, unnumbered pages for photo section, Gillet lists the unit as "Anfklärungsschwarm I./KG51," and the pilot as Obfw Kurt Ernst. It was shot down at 16:00 hours on 12 May on "la ferme Pommard."

In Peter Cornwell's new book: TBoFrT&N the respective entry is:

"May 12, 1940: Stab I./KG51 Heinkel He111H. Believed shot down by S/Lt Hutter of GC II/1 during reconnaissance sortie and belly-landed on Ferme de Pommard, 5 km south-east of Chablis 3.15 p.m. Possibly also attacked by Adj Dumas of DAT Châteaudun, and Capt de Rivals-Mazères of CEAM. Oberfw K. Ernst, Oberfw M. Groth, Fw L. Gehring, and Fw J. Hofbauer all captured unhurt. Aircraft a write-off."

My note with this loss speculates that Peter didn't pick up the aircraft code as 9K+AA because it didn't fit the unit of crew assignment, although Gillet's photo clearly shows the aircraft with that code.

I think that this identification further strengthens the argument that this was a "hand-me-down" aircraft from the Geschwader Stabschwarm that had only recently re-equipped with the Ju88.

Regards,

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

In the loss report it shows an aircraft from the Stabsschwarm but the crew being from I./KG 51. The all returned from POW camp unhurt.

I think you are onto something regarding the hand me down aircraft Larry.

Regards,

Norbert

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Thanks for all replies on my questions. I noticed the only KG 51 heinkels that were being discussed on this forum are 1./KG 51 aircraft like 9K+GH and 9K+IH

Maybe 1./KG 51 was one of the last KG 51 units to fly the He111. The only other KG 51 Heinkels I know to have crashed in France in may are 9K+EB and 9K+DD. Should be more I guess, but these are the only ones I found on the internet.

But it is plausible to say this aircraft had been flown by Stab KG 51 (and most likely Kammhuber has flown it), but during the invasion in France it was assigned to 1./KG 51 and for some reason there had been no time to repaint it?

groeten

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hi Larry,

Spot on, but you'll find that I do quote the full codes on p253 of BoFrT&N but failed to make the connection in my earlier post. An Aufklarungsschwarm generally formed part of a Geschwader or Gruppe Stabsstaffel & flew pre/post attack recce sorties for the unit.

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Not sure if this helps but I was in touch with Kammhuber's BF (Werner Luederitz) who confirms that 3 Jun 40, they were in a Ju 88 as well as 29 May 40 when they were hit by Flak over Dunkirk and crash-landed their Ju 88 at Sandhofen (I have a photo of the crash-lanbed Ju 88 on this day). No mention is it was 'AA' but Luederitz, after being returned 14 days later, was then shot down on 12 Aug 40 in another 'AA'

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hi,
Today some more photos are up for auction. One showing the discussed emblem and another showing the He 111 with this emblem behind a III./KG 51 Ju 88, with code 9K+AA.
http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-German-Phot...1%7C240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-German-Phot...1%7C240%3A1318

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-German-Phot...1%7C240%3A1318

Must be quite unusual to have two a/c of different makes but with the same codes - 9K+AA - under one roof!


http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...11inback_2.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...e111inback.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...11inback_3.jpg


Cheers
Goran

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Excellent photos, Goran. Thanks for posting them... :)

Two further points: Peter Cornwell's posting here from 7th May states that Stabs Green would be the colour of the first letter 'A'. Would it not perhaps more likely be Stabs Blue, RML24? I believe, however, that there were occasions where Green RLM25 was used, and late in the war Green RML25 was allocated to Geschwaderstab aircraft because RML24 was instead allocated to the fourth Staffel within a Gruppe, where a unit has this number of Staffeln.

Secondly, the undernoted photo comes from one of Ed West's offerings a while back. Interesting to note that it shows the same Heinkel from a distance which clearly shows the absence of the Ju88A.

Sorry, forgot photo... will follow in next post here... !

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

As promised... :)

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Cheers!
Can be interesting to compare with this 9K+AA sold in March 2008 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220212387395

Hmmm...dead of course...ebay.de anyway.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3..._KG51_9KAA.jpg

Br
Goran

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hi, Goran...

Yes, I have seen this photo before. Until you posted it this afternoon, I have to admit that I hadn't looked at it properly. I'd sort of thought it was from the Balkan campaign, given the lighter shade on the top of the left engine cowling, but on looking at it again, I don't think so.

I'd say it was an A-5 (inset ailerons, A-4 style wing tips, no blister under the engine cowling and single machine gun in rear canopy), but the most striking thing for me is the noticeably bright colour on the first letter 'A'... almost as though it was white or yellow. The strength of shade is really quite remarkable, especially when comparing it to the Ju88 in the photo beside the Heinkel fuselage which you posted earlier, and despite there being some degree of shadow in that picture. However, it may well be a classic case of the film used to take this photo has changed over the years, and consequently colours show up differently over the passage of time, a common phenomenon for some types of film used during the war.

Regards...

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hi,

Looking at fuselage cross I'd go for a white 'A' (as yellow, I'm sure, would show a tonal difference). Also, how about a white top half engine cowling?

Regards

David

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hi, David...

Yes, the colour is quite confusing, isn't it...? I'd still say it's a film-related quirk, as the confirmation of Geschwaderstab status by way of the last letter 'A' in the code would, in theory, have meant the first 'A' being RLM24 blue.

As for white engine cowlings, personally I don't think so. I could be wrong of course. Technically, this would have indicated a machine operational on the southern front - southern Italy, Sardinia, Sicily and North Africa. I have seen Heinkel He111s with white engine cowlings, but I can't say I've ever seen a Ju88 similarly coloured. Wait for it... someone will probably prove me wrong in a few minutes... :D

Just as a little teaser, who agrees that it's a Heinkel He45 beyond the Ju88...?

Regards...

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

B&W films and photos do not change "colours" over the time!

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Okay... I stand corrected. I never claimed to be an expert on photography. I take it then, that that is a phenomenon which applies exclusively to colour film?

Any ideas, then, as to why this machine's code is somewhat irregular in its appearance?

Regards...

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hi,

Balkans - ca April 1941.

Regards

Robert

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hi, Robert...

Thanks for that. Are you able to confirm your source of information? Was it perhaps noted on the back of the photo?

Regards...

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Yes. B&W photography is based on silver, so the most common problem is deterioration of base (paper or film). Another issue is improper development which leads to deterioration - fading away. All colour tricks are limited to film and filter combinations.

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Franek...

Thanks for the explanation. One learns something new every day... :).

Regards...

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Never expected more pictures would show up. Is there any chance the Ju88A is Kammhuber's aircraft?

Í think the digit is in green, because the RLM 24 is much darker shade then RLM 25 and in B&W would be become harder to see against a RLM 70/71 background.

The reason why there's only a I & III Gruppe logo represented in the shield is that KG 51 recieved a II Gruppe (with Ju88A) during spring 1940 (april)

groeten!!!

PS: I'm referring to the Heinkel and the Ju88A beside it, not the above Ju88A

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Certainly the colors don't 'change' over time, but if there was any type of filtering used when the photo was taken, the resulting image may appear to show certain colors to be different to what they actually were with B&W photography. Jerry Crandall gave an illuminating demonstration of this at a seminar at an IPMS Nats a few years ago. (2004 @ Va.Beach?) Wish I could remember the particulars of the complete presentation, but in at least one case he clearly proved that a particular filter would make red appear as white. I would love to see him publish his research on this at some time. And we all know that different types of film can cause similar color shifts.

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Hi, Jim...

Thanks for your posting. Your comments may go in part to explain what we see in the photo provided by Goran.

I imagine there could be many different reasons for a white or yellow I/D letter on a Geschwaderstab machine. I can't honestly say at this moment in time that I've seen any other examples, but perhaps others would be able to confirm otherwise.

Regards...

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

That would be the crash Oberst Dr. Johann-Volkmar Fisser did not survive?

Re: info about emblem on he111 9K+AA Oberst Kammhuber
 

Final crash was Fisser's