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Crash in a little french village
Hello, I am french and a great fan of WWII airplanes. My grand father remembers that a allied plane (he thinks it was British) crashed near his village in Auvergne, France. The name of the village is Dompierre s/Besbre. The pilot survived and bailed out. Some farmers helped him hide from the Germans and link with the Resistance, He escaped into the Zone Libre, the non-occupied zone. He went to Gibraltar and then back to England. Does anyone know where (maybe an internet site) I could find what kind on plane is was, when it crashed and what the name of the pilot? My grand father and other people I asked can't remember. Thank You very much,
Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Hello Keral,
I think you will need to try and find a date for your question to have much chance of finding out any history? Mervyn. |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Well, that is the problem, none of the people I asked seem to remember when... :(
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Re: Crash in a little french village
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Re: Crash in a little french village
Tank you very much Tony Kabmic. That is a very nice page but it is a listing of crashes in Côtes d'Or and the crash I am looking for was in Auvergne. It is too far North East. The nearest big towns (if it can help) are Moulins, 30 minutes away from the village and Clermont Ferrand (a big town), 2 hours away.
I have a piece of the plane, a 3 kilo metal debri with rivets. |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Quite possibly, an image of that debris item may help to pin down an aircraft type. That would be a start! Does it have any part numbers or stampings?
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Re: Crash in a little french village
Hello Keral,
For a date you could check the local air raid precautions reports or police reports as far as these has survived the war (and the years after that). The date is always the best starting point for further research. Best regards, Hans Nauta |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Here are some photos:
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/4638/cimg1380dn1.jpg http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3415/cimg1388sv6.jpg http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3609/cimg1391pi0.jpg http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/5811/cimg1385na2.jpg The numbers are 102-31911 on the biggest rivet, there is a cross in a shape of a big "X" in between the bars there are letters on top on the "X" there is a "S"; on the right on the "X" there is a "M"; on the left a "N" and on the bottom a "x". There is also a pentagon printed on with "MAG 10" on it. I do not live in Dompierre so I can't go look at the records, I doubt they have survived. Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Hello Leo,
Some informations to help you : - As it was written before, you need to find a date, ask local peoples about the year (just after invasion ? After air raid ? near liberation's time ? ...) . What about the season ? Try to find any information about datation ! - Who took the pilot ? Wich Underground Group ? Most of the time, books were written about underground actions and reports were made after the war. Try to see them at Archives Départementales (but it is not easy !) - Very difficult to see Gendarmerie reports. They are closed for simple searchers ! - Try to look on local newspapers for articles about the crash. See 1994 for 50 years birthday of liberation ! - If it's a RAF plane, you might look for Shorley's book (Fighter Command Losses) ... But it's a long data list ! Good luck ! Stéphane |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Thank you for the tips Stéphane Muret (est-tu français?) I will try to find out some more information.
Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
If the pilot has really made it back to Britain, he must have made a report. These reports survive at Kew (The National Archives). I don't have the reference numbers at hand, but I'm sure someone here can help. Anyway, TNA has an extensive web-accessible index. The reports I have seen paid much attention to actual location names and names of people who helped (these details were essential for any future evaders), so if you can have a look through these reports it is likely that you'll find your man.
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Re: Crash in a little french village
Thanks VoyTech! I will try that!
Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Hi Keral,
The green/yellow and olive drab paint suggests an USAAF aircraft. Regards, Hans Nauta |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Yes Keral, do not hesitate to send a PM ! It'll be more easy in french !
Stephane |
Re: Crash in a little french village
i'm agree with Hans, Yellow zinc chromate colors are for USAAF plane !
Stéphane |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Crash most likely before first week of September 1944 when area was liberated.
(Clermont-Ferrand on 27-8-1944, Bourges on 6-9-1944, Dijon 11-9-1944). If pilot was helped to Gibraltar, then apparently also before Allied landings in S. France on 15-8-1944. Regards, Leendert |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Ok Thanks guys! I will try to contact the US national archives.
Stephane, tu habites ou? Moi a Bordeaux depuis 1 an, avant j'étais a Madrid. Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Certainly a machine BUILT in the US from what we have seen, but that does not mean it has to be USAAF operated. Could easily have been an RAF operated but US built type, so it is important not to rule out an RAF aeroplane.
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Re: Crash in a little french village
Bonjour Leo,
If my information is correct 102- parts were parts used for a P51 Mustang .. Any Mustang partslist available ? Best regards from rainy Belgium Luc |
Re: Crash in a little french village
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Crash in a little french village
Dan,
Fantastic information ! So we already know which type of plane it was. Was this village within the 'reach' of the 8 and 9th Air Force ? Best regards Luc |
Re: Crash in a little french village
So, i have :
Dompierre sur Besbre (Allier department) 31 August 1944 13/14 Hour afternoon P-51 from 111th TRS 12th AAF from St Raphael exact place for crash near old sport place near Gardens ( now city building L'olive) one french man was burned and injuried (Mr Thomas) Pilot bailed out was found near Sapin Wood Farm and was in Condan Farm (Mr Chaussin) Mission reco, plane coming from rhone walley before Crash Caused by the Flak on German Radar Train near thiel sur acolin (near parc Le Pal) Pilot Felix Stanley (Rank Lt no sure ...) coming perhaps Arizona... come back his unity 44.09.07 (US source) For moment, i don't have the serial for the plane ... Bsrg, Dan |
Re: Crash in a little french village
On the page from my friend SES you can see the train from Thiel sur acollin, it's certainly his Flak who shooting down our Mustang :
http://www.gyges.dk/Ln%20zbV%2016.htm Bsrg, Dan |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Great find there Dan! Thank you very much, I really appreciate it! Yes, l'Auberge de l'Olive, a very nice restaurant! I also know Thiel, my great uncle lives there. Very interesting, a P-51. Dan, how did you find thiis, it is incredible, I searched the internet for hours with no succes! I like to build models so I am going to build a model of it. Do you know what type it was? P-51D I presume.
Best regards, Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Hi,
Not easy to found exact type of this P-51, 111 Trs have diverses types of aircrafts I don't know exactly, difficult without the serial ... you need found mission report or accident report ... Perhaps near one USAAF forum, or 111 trs association or veterans .. Best Regards, Dan |
Re: Crash in a little french village
If it was a 111th TRS Mustang then it would have been a F-6 (Photo-Reconnaissance version) of the P-51C
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Re: Crash in a little french village
Also I think his name is actually
Stanley E Felix Serial Number: 38000291 |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Thanks guys!
Best regard, Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
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Re: Crash in a little french village
Hello Paul and Keral,
I doubt whether Stanley E Felix was the pilot. Pilot's were officers and not enlisted personel like Stanley E Felix. See also his service number... Regards, Hans Nauta |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Yes, certainly one officer, identity come from french FFI rememberance,
(Lt Gilbert Chabridon (code name Hubert from Camp Guy Maquet near Vaumas) perhaps we can try stanl(a)y too, error allways possible ... When the pilot bailed out his plane, his flying suite was broken, and his paper are missed, he have one arm "bracelet" identity and one ring with the name from his wife engraved inside . He come from Arizona ... Best Regards, Dan |
Re: Crash in a little french village
HansI think you will find, hat was his enlistment number, he would have got an officers number after qualification as pilotStanley E Felix had a P-40 ( I think) Accident in 1945 back in the States
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Re: Crash in a little french village
Not easy, many possiblities :
names exemples James F Stanley or other ... or too with FELIX name and Stanlay little name; I look by exemple on theses sites http://www.accident-report.com/Crew_Names/NAME44S1.html http://www.accident-report.com/Crew_...amef_flit.html Bsrg, Dan |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Hello Hans,
Re enlistment of Stanley E. Felix. The date is given as January 1941. Ample time for flying training and promotion to pilot status . When he would get a new service number. I could find nothing else though except the NARA page you gave. 111TRS however was with the 69th TRG. I could only find the following. 15th June 44 2Lt. Arthur S. Kazarian F-6 42-103457 13th Aug 44 1Lt. Collis C.Lovely F-6 42-104200 22nd Aug 44 Lt. Rochard F. Hoy F-6 42-103428 25th Dec 44 2Lt. F.L. Horanic F-6 42-103460 (But 1Lt.William C. Littlewood, POW this date). 29th Jan 45 1Lt. G.F.Geddis F-6 42-103304 11th Feb 45 F-6 42-103411 22nd Feb 45 F-6 42-103486 1st April 45 Lt. Carl A. Sodermark F-6 42-103216 11th April 45 1Lt. Walter Vetter F-6 42-103482 Alex |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Yeah, hard to know if Stanley was his first or last name, it could be both... Stanley and Felix are both first and last names.
Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Hello Leo,
Have looked on the Nara enlistment pages and found several felix Stanley's but none fit the AAF all seem to be Army. There were none listed in the Reservists pages that i could find. Alex |
Re: Crash in a little french village
mmm, weird... I don't know why.
Leo |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Ok, here are all the Felix Stanley or Stanley Felix that I found on NARA: http://aad.archives.gov/aad/display-...893&tf=F&bc=sl
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Re: Crash in a little french village
To all: it's Stanley (first name) E. Felix (last name). No need to argue about that, I reckon.
He's (also) mentioned on wwiimemorial.com with "Fighter pilot. Flew P-51 Mustangs in combat over Europe", with hometown Phoenix, AZ. 111th TRS was with 12th Air Force that followed the US 7th Army on its way north after the Allied landings in S. France on 15-8-1944. Regards, Leendert |
Re: Crash in a little french village
Hello Keral,
In Claude Grimaud book's I have found : 31.08.1944 - 12th Air Force F-6 from 111th TRS crashed near Dompierre-sur-Besbre. Pilot: 1st Lt. Stanley E. Felix Recce Mission onto Strasbourg-Bordeaux railway. Helped by French underground movement. All the best from France, Fred |
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