RLM colours please.
 

Attachment 2166


hi all does anybody know the correct RLM'S for this 109?

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Hi... :)

The thumbnail you provide seems a little 'bright' in its reproduction, but I would suggest the greens are perhaps RLM70/71 (schwarzgrün and dunkelgrün respectively). Undersurfaces would be RLM 65 hellblau, with yellow RLM04 cowling, wingtips and fuselage band and white RLM21 spinner, probably with an RLM70 backplate. The green of the 'Grünherz' emblem would have been RLM25.

A few things to bear in mind: firstly, the profile you provide is of a machine from JG54, who were specialists in experimenting with unorthodox and non-standard colour scheme applications; secondly, I suspect that one of the greens could actually have been RLM02 'RLM Grau', or a mixed shade incorporating that colour; also note that some RLM shades did change during the lifetime of the Luftwaffe, although they retained their number - for example, the 1938 shade of RLM65 would be different from the 1941-onwards shade.

If you're able to obtain copies, then I personally think that Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft in Profile and its companion volume More Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft in Profile by Sundin and Bergstrom (Schiffer), give an excellent impression of fighter colour schemes. The first thing I noticed about the second volume was the 'toning down' of colours for scale effect on the profiles, and although both books are first class, I really think the second volume has captured the colour tones very accurately... just a personal opinion, though... :). Some of these authors' material has reached the inernet, I believe. I can't remember where exactly I've seen them, but I'm sure you could 'Google' your way to finding them.

In case you're interested in obtaining them, the ISBNs are: 0-7643-0291-4 and 0-7643-1559-5.

Hals und Beinbruch...!

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Hi,
This is a great on-line resource:
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/d...chartswm_1.htm
bregds
SES

Re: RLM colours please.
 

i have found that the lighter colour is RLM 83. i think the other might be 81 or 82?

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Hi, Amiers...

I openly admit fighters aren't my strong point, but I'd be more than a little suprised if any of the greens were in the 80s range, given that the thumbnail was of a Bf109F, possibly 1941 or 1942 vintage, and that the RLM80s range of colours were only officially announced on 1 July, 1944. Even then, it took a little while for the changes to percolate down to the units.

I can appreicate someone not believing them to be representative of RLM70/71, but as I mentioned earlier, this unit specialised in the unorthodox and non-standard, so I would be very cautious of stating exactly what shade they're supposed to represent.

SES's link to colour charts is indeed a very good one, and the colours there are, in my mind, much more representative of authentic shades. Even here, though, it should be remembered that if experimentation with paints and colour schemes is taking place, then quite possibly the colours used would not match to any paint chart. However, on the basis of the chart shown at the link provided by SES, my money would still be on RLM70/71 if we're starting from the point of a definite colour.

Thanks, SES, too, for that link...

Kindest regards...

Re: RLM colours please.
 

My pleasure. Maybe that link ought to be sticky.
bregds
SES

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Well, it's one of the best I've seen, so I saved it to pc... :)

Re: RLM colours please.
 

So did I, and I included it as a link on my WEB-site:
http://www.gyges.dk/links.htm
bregds
SES

Re: RLM colours please.
 

And why not... it's a very useful chart... :)

Please forgive my ignorance, but your location of 05 ON LT 8 intrigues me. Judging from the link to your website, your location is Denmark? I presumed it was a Luftwaffe reference (as opposed to standard longtitudinal/latitudinal) but had no idea of where... :o

Out of curiosity, was there one for my location, Glasgow?

Regards...

Re: RLM colours please.
 

It is a deliberate teaser. The answer can be found here:
http://www.gyges.dk/reporting_grids.htm
under the link LUMA which is a co-ordinate converter.

Down-town Glasgow being 55*51*N004*16'W would be 15 WN NM 58.
;)
SES

Re: RLM colours please.
 

anothe 2 hours of searching and it seems it may be 70/79

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Hi, Amiers...

Well, I'd certainly be able to accept that combination, especially as a sandgelb colour, perhaps RML79 or something approaching an approximation, was used on JG54's Fw190s. Aircraft operating out over the vast expanses of the Soviet Union used this type of colour quite frequently over the dryer, dustier earth-coloured ground, and oftentimes had dust filters fitted to them as well.

So, two hours, eh...? I've been at this for 37 years and I'm still asking questions... :D . I hope you've enjoyed the hunt, though. I can think of worse ways to spend a Sunday afternoon.

I've put a link below for you. Perhaps you're researching a colour scheme for a model, I don't know, but if you scroll down to 'Messerschmitt' and pick out the 'F' version, you'll get a really good idea of some of the colours. There's also a JG3 Bf109F in a sand, grey and green non-standard 'splinter' scheme which I particularly like, and is a lovely example of the unorthodox.

Kindest regards...

http://www.hyperscale.com/features.htm

Re: RLM colours please.
 

yes i found that one. thats what made me look harder.but i found this also.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Just 3 cents, gents.

1. Soviet VVS HAD NO BROUN colour in theyr camouflage at all. AMT-1 was sand/gray (NOT broun), but it got used only from october 1943.

2. JG 54's Bf109 and Fw190 used RLM79 mixed with RLM02 for theyr "Broun" colour. "Green" were RLM 70 (used with Bf109), RLM 71 (used together with RLM 70 in Fw190) and RLM 25 (Used by II./JG 54's Fw190 in 1943).

3. "Soviet paint", used by JG 54, is very ald myth, based on speculation.

4. The same situation with Fw190 of JG 51. They used the same mixture for theyr "Broun".

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Actually Claes Sundin made profiles for "Black Cross - Red Star" Vol 3 which had JG 54 aircraft showing both RLM 70 and AMT-4 (i.e. Nowotny's Bf 109 F).

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Hi, Evgeny... :)

Thanks for your information, it certainly explains a lot.


Amiers...

Very good, I'm very impressed... :) Now we all better understand the confusion that can arise. So, my friend, which one do you believe...? Or do you think that perhaps they are both valid schemes, applied at slightly different time periods...? Ah, the trials, tribulations and endless hours of fun we all get from researching the Luftwaffe...

Regards...

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Those colours were not issued until later in the war, too late for the Bf 109 F in front line service.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Usure of AMT-1, AMt-4 in Liftwaffe is speculation only.

1. Germans didnt accept Soviet colours because of its quality. German aviation paint were matt, but Soviet - a bit glossing, and in flight it shined on sun and demasking.

2. Also, hundreds of aircrafts (both German and Finnish) were painted in new color. You may just calculate how much paint Germans had to "capture" to paint theyr aircrafts :)

Re: RLM colours please.
 

I do not think RLM 79 was used at all. I believe there were two distinguished camouflages, one following Finnish pattern with their colours, and another using RLM 70, 71 and 02 colours. I believe that tannish colour of 02 on known colour photos is due to light of sun low over horizon.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

well its a hard call. i must admit i had forgotton that 81,82,83 were not introduced till 44, so that rules them out. the info i found was here www.pegatiros.com/.../luftwave/index.htm i translated the page into english. i have also discovered that the RLM may have re-released colours late in the war with different numbers. 61/62=81/82 i have all these colours and did a test spray, they are very similar.

so i have no doubt the camo pattern was green, but the base colour is going to be hard. some decal sheets show it in what appears to be 83 but i cant find any reference to that, so where did they get it?

stay tuned to this channel!


p.s what colour is the green on this G10 82 or 83 or what should it be?. this seems to be a popular 109 for modelers

Re: RLM colours please.
 

If You have PhotoShop, look this colour swatch:

It also showing "different" colors 74 and 75, wich is most dobtfull now. Usually most modellers use "distorted" 74 and 75.

74 as "Dark gray" and 75 as "Medium Gray".

But they forget that 74 was "Green Gray" and 75 was "Grey Violet" :)

You may find correct in this palette.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

I agree with Franek. I've studied a lot of pictures, including many in color, for 10 years and I am almost sure that RLM 79 was not used on Eastern Front with the exeption of planes which had this color in time of delivery. Bf 109F for JG 5 or FW 190F-8 from SG 4 were good examples of that. But if I see a model of Emil Lang's FW 190A-5 black 7 painted with sand colors I can only smile.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

ok now im confused! if Rlm 79 wasnt used on the eastern front what are the correct colours for the 109 i started this thread about?

Re: RLM colours please.
 

RLM 70 (or 71)/02/76, with RLM 04 on engine cowling and FIE, and white markings :)

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Are you sure it is not in Finnish colours?
Have you ever seen an original sample of the above mentioned colours? I am also told that Me 109s surviving in Finland are painted with original 74/75 paints, so hardly distorted.
I would like to see any proof of use of 79 on JG5 aircraft. I believe they were completely overpainted when diverted to Finland with standard 74/75/76.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

IMHO that scheme, used on Bf109F-4 of JG 5 and JG 3, not contain RLM 79 but RLM 02, together with 74 and 75 for upper. See attach. This is example of JG 3 aircraft, and JG 5 received aircrafts with the identical camouflage.

About strange colours of JG 54's aircrafts.

There is 3 suggestions:

I explained in previous posts.

To transffer several hundreds of kilograms of paint could not be result of "partnership between unit comansers", but could be result of "Partnership between Official Goverments", with confirming documents e.t.c. There was only one act documented - transferring a paint FROM GERMANY TO FINNLAND (RLM 74/75/76) to use to repair/repaint Finnish Bf109G's.

Useless, because Luftwaffe already had many colours for uppersurfaces:
RLM 70, 71, 02, 74, 75.

For that landscape for uppersurfases 70 (or/together 71)/02 with 76 on undersurfases whas the most usefull.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Hello!

First thanks for the Remont book, Evgeny.

I have not seen a single piece of document that RLM 74/75/76 paints were delivered to Finland! And I do have searched high and low in the archives. Note, that this does necessarily have to mean that such deliveries were not made! IF you really have documents of such I very much would like to hear more.

Ikarol paints were bought from Germany, but these were apparently made to Finnish specifications colour and otherwise. Documents of purchases do survive.

NO Finnish paints were given to Germans to my knowledge. Nor is there any documents of such that I know. The Winter and Schildt & Hallberg paints were chemically different from the RLM finishing systems.


Regards,
Kari

PS Kjetil Aakra has written nice piece of text of the Afrika-coloured Bf 109 F-4 delivered to JG5. Available at www.ahs.no -site. I used to object the use RLM 79 but it seems many if not all of the F-4 subtypes delivered late Spring-Summer 1942 to JG 5 were Trop versions. What their colours became after delivery is another matter. Others will know more for sure.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

You will hardly find information about eg. paints handed over by British to Americans. Usually such transfers were made under necessary war materials acts, so local commanders could acquire some goods not available from own stocks. Another possibility is that the aircraft were overhauled at Finnish depots, and the general agreement did not specify paints used.
It seems Finnish colours could have been used in the early period on Me 109Fs. This could have been done locally with no paperwork surviving to the present day.
As noted, the thesis does not provide a single proof 79 was not overpainted before the delivery.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

And your thesis is also not confirmed with any evidence.
It will be senseless to produce trop versions painted in standard colors.

Robert

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Hello!

It seems you have no knowledge of the Finnish field depot system. No it could not have been done locally without any written notice surviving. It would at least surface in the weekly reports of work done at field depots etc. Not to speak about the accounting offices because paint would have not been delivered gratis. Co-operation between Finns and Germans was not so easy and informal as you seem to think.

Regards,
Kari

Re: RLM colours please.
 

The evidence is the German regulations of the period which required 74/75/76 colours. This has nothing to the colours, those aircraft were painted in the factory. Apart of that you seem to not to understand what trop version means.
Kari, I do not mean there was no paperwork, I just only mean that this may have not survived to the present time. I cannot imagine MFAs discussing delivery of a few cans to German units. Another possibility is that the German units got extra deliveries of German produced paints for Finland. Then there will be no trace of those deliveries, I am afraid.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Hi all,

I would like to add some facts to this fascinating discussion:
In this link: http://http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm you will find, in the "multimedia-videos" section, a film taken by Werner Pichon-Kalau von Hofe while Stab/JG54 was located at Trakehnen (East Prussia) in June 1941, before the start of SU's invasion.
It seems that the sported camouflage was maintained by the Stab planes Trautloft's included) for most part of 1941.
This film is discussed by Ken Merrick in the "Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1935-1945" chapter seven.
Here are some lines of Merrick's text:
"...shows a camouflage of a brown and and a medium dark green..."
"Still photographs taken from the colour footage are flawed by the usual colour changes inherent in any colour process, especially one of that vintage; a colour shift is discernable to skin tones of the people..."
"Another influencing factor is is the highly reflecting surfaces produced by polishing of the entire airframe..."
"Allowing for the other factors mentioned, as well as checking the standard 02 colouring on internal sections in the engine bay area, it is possible that the colours 79 and 80 were used..."

I know that even colour photos can be tricky and, much more, stills taken from old non-professional films, but it is clear for me that, if the colours are not 79 and 80, then they are very similar to.
Of course, other opinions will be welcomed.
I have some stills taken from that film but, sorry, I am unable to include them in this post.

Regards, Saludos

Re: RLM colours please.
 

You have also video of the Fw190 in this colors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUwF2FRQmIU

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Gentelmen,

According to this von Hofe's film:
1. In June 1941 RLM 79 and 80 were in initial stage of using. In June 1941 first Bf 109E of I./JG 27 were repainted in Noth Africa in these colors, and probably it is even not proven that they at first used proper RLM 79 or any provisional paint.
2. In this film paint scheme is not similar to any known tropical factory scheme. At this time tropical scheme were not worked out and JG 54 aircraft were almost certainly field repainted. Using RLM 79 to that is ulikely.

As we see from our discussion we can agree that using RLM 79 on eastern front to repaint aircraft was unlikely to happen. In pictures of JG 54 Bf 109F and in one picture of FW 190A-5 (black 5, Max Stotz) I see brown color. It was not sand but evidently brown shade without any doubt. We can only speculate what was the source of this brown paint and all speculations are equally probable.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Pilot,

It is the Fw 190 A-5/U3 WNr 0151227, White A of 4/JG54, shot down on 19th July of 1943.
There is somewhere in this forum a very complete report on this plane.

There are also two colour photos in Merrick's mentioned book (page 107) as an example of the use of colours 61 and 62, soon to be 81 and 82 (according to Merrick's theory, that I believe very sound).

I have seen in other reply to this subject an unknown to me photo of Adalbert Kuhn's Gelbe 9 (9/JG3) with Russian personnel around.
I guess if someone among the Russian members of this forum could try to find any report on the colours sported by the captured German planes.
I think that tis information could surely have been recorded.
This would be almost definitive, even thinking that in spite of the many British reports on downed planes during the Battle of Britain, the controversy on colours is still open...

This is just to say that, about the I and III/JG3 colours during the spring and early summer of 1942, my impression since long is that the real colours could be 78, 79 and, yes, 61 and 62. Sorry...
There are several Russian photos of these unit's captured planes so, perhaps there are some reports still to be unearthed.

About the JG54, I think that several colour photos have clearly shown that 61 and 62 (with probably 63) were common in 1942 and 1943.

Regards, saludos

Re: RLM colours please.
 

So, I was not right about JG 3 colors. Sorry, I am not an expert :)

Re: RLM colours please.
 

[quote=Franek Grabowski;67954]The evidence is the German regulations of the period which required 74/75/76 colours. This has nothing to the colours, those aircraft were painted in the factory. Apart of that you seem to not to understand what trop version means.

Ah so trop versions were painted in 74/75/76 colors? I only know one trop version - for Africa.
Please show us some evidences that Sandgelb was not used by F-4TR planes enlisted into I/JG3, III/JG3 and JG5. Please don`t hide them.

Robert

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Evgeny,

You can be perfectly right.
My comment on JG3 colours is just an assumption (that I like very much), and I am not an expert either, just an enthusiast.

I have use it as an example of the many topics that we discuss on endlessly and that perhaps could be solved if Russian historians could have a look to the archived reports on captured German planes and see if there are some comments on paint and colours.

Regards, saludos

Re: RLM colours please.
 

I've saw a book (as far as I remember - Russian book), about captured german aircrafts. With reports and photoes. But I didnt downloaded it.

And now dont remember WHERE I saw it.

May be here:

http://www.armourbook.com/
http://www.myallbooks.com/index.php?...1&startnum=606
http://www.megamagzone.com/2007/05/1...cts_books.html
=----
Admins: if posting a link to such webpage is wrong due to copyrights, pls edit my post and delete that link.

Re: RLM colours please.
 

Speaking strictly of 109s, yes, there were such aircraft.
You never cease to amaze me.
I suppose anyone can scan for you the respective Luftwaffe order on painting fighters in 74/75/76 colours. It is well known, for ages now.