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This time for 1941

Do17 /217/ Kgr.606 60 % at Brest-guipavas 19.febr.

Bf109E-7 4939 Fw Bouillon KIA 7.JG77 20.Febr.

BF109E-7 8.april Ofhr Reeh 5.JG26 this one puzzling by the Wn. orig. doc gave 7254 an F-4 pretty soon for this type + II.JG26 seems late to convert on F, 2757 or 2759 suggested by the site seems quite old planes for this time...

Remi

Hello Remi,

Here are the losses

Bf 109E-7 WNr.4939 20.02.41 7./JG77 Fw. Helmut Bouillon (†), Ju88 der 3.(F)/121 angegriffen und von dieser abgeschossen - Absturz, Morlaix - 100%
Bf 109E-7 WNr.2754 08.04.41 5./JG26 Obgefr. Horst Reeh (†), Luftkampf mit Blenheim - Absturz, Lannion N Morlaix - 100%

Fw. Bouillon attacked by mistake a frendly Ju88 and was shot down. WNr.2754 was originally an E-3 from Mtt Regensburg production.

best regard,
Tomi

Hello Tomi,

Are these the original losses reported, or amended , or other source than GQG returns ???

REMI

Hello,

The losses are initial GQM losses ammended or corrected with Dr. Priens JFV series.

der gute Doktor,

thks Tomi, more nd more I realize that the usual loss list is full of holes, not speaking for the accuracy..

remi

Try and find the losses for the Stukas from St.G. 1 that have appeared in several publications with the rather large holes in them from the Malta Flak. (one was Mahlke's machine, the other another RK winner). In another incident, this time from Crete, one crew was shot down and paddled around the Med for a couple of days before being picked up. Not mentioned in the losses - I think this was mentioned in the Bruetting book on Stuka aces. The pilot, whose name I can't recall, was an eventual RK winner.

Excellent! I hope this could be start for a serious discussion about accuracy of German loss reports. I and my friend we have once calculated an average proportion of pilots killed to Spitfires lost on operational missions, and compared to such ratio of Me 109s lost in 1941. It was striking observation that only few Me 109s were written off without killing the pilot.

Hi,

I think you are making a mistake due to your limited knowledge about Luftwaffe. I counted some 111 cases in whole 1941 when the Bf109 fighters were lost or returned damaged without killing their pilots.

Regards

Robert

I think you just have a limited reading capability. I wrote written off and not damaged, and compared to killed airmen! Thus said your number of 111 aircraft serves no purpose. Otherwise do not spoil the discussion.

It`s only statistic, which doesn`t prove that the Luftwaffe losses are incomplete. And this number included also many lost Bf109 fighters without killed pilots.

Robert

Dear Franek,

When I start this business 3 or 4 years ago , I jump first on the returns of the GQG at that time the task was so huge more than 100.000 losses that these ones looked to me as the climax ,just rather disappointed not to find the year 1944 at least 20 or 30.000 losses alone, but...
Second when I spoke of inaccuracy, is in the cause or the place of the loss, but strictly speaking of the losses for sure we hv more than 99 % of them for the material nd very close to 100 % for the men, here the example is 1941, in the returns there are 10.832 losses, maybe, Jim could correct me , if 50 or 100 losses are missing is a great maximum, my questions are on 3 planes for 1 I missread , 1 is missing in the returns 1 quite for sure the date given by the site is wrong
The work of Mr. Prien , if not definitive but not to much could be added I am afraid , hs been made with the greatest serious, nd for sure with no will to hide anything, from 10.mai 40 to end of june 40, just considering the fighter units he added just 80 losses of the 600+ we could find in the returns of GQG so a bit more than 10 % at a period where, due to the confusion of the fast nd hard fights people could understand that something was missed,

My opinion is that the german losses are not worst known as the allies ones, maybe better if I trust in what I hv heard from you for the allies of allies units poles, czech..

Regards

Remi

Remi

Quote:

Originally Posted by RT (Post 69057)

When I start this business 3 or 4 years ago , I jump first on the returns of the GQG at that time the task was so huge more than 100.000 losses that these ones looked to me as the climax ,just rather disappointed not to find the year 1944 at least 20 or 30.000 losses alone, but...

Loss of 1944 records is not such a problem, comparing to losses in other records, like fleets' returns, units' returns, units' documents and aircraft documents.

Quote:

Second when I spoke of inaccuracy, is in the cause or the place of the loss, but strictly speaking of the losses for sure we hv more than 99 % of them for the material nd very close to 100 % for the men,

Considering the WASt archive is closed for any research, and all knowledge available comes from few researchers, who worked there in 1960s or 1970s, I would be not so sure if those lists are complete. More, the question remains, if those records are complete, I have seen some copies with traces of fire.

Quote:

here the example is 1941, in the returns there are 10.832 losses, maybe, Jim could correct me , if 50 or 100 losses are missing is a great maximum, my questions are on 3 planes for 1 I missread , 1 is missing in the returns 1 quite for sure the date given by the site is wrong

Crete was in 1941. Jim mentions a number of Ju 87s alone, confirmed by other means, that do not appear in records. The question is, how many such gaps are in total?

Quote:

The work of Mr. Prien , if not definitive but not to much could be added I am afraid , hs been made with the greatest serious, nd for sure with no will to hide anything,

He has nothing to hide, but his work is as accurate as records he has access to.

Quote:

from 10.mai 40 to end of june 40, just considering the fighter units he added just 80 losses of the 600+ we could find in the returns of GQG so a bit more than 10 % at a period where, due to the confusion of the fast nd hard fights people could understand that something was missed,

It cannot be said 10% is minimal number, especially considering it could be not the final number. I do not mention other inaccuracies in records, like misdating.

Quote:

My opinion is that the german losses are not worst known as the allies ones, maybe better if I trust in what I hv heard from you for the allies of allies units poles, czech..

I do not understand this sentence.

I just gave my opinion/impression, based in my work, that is more than nothing, at least for me. Further is very unusual to find families asking for their relatives whose loss is not known

Concerning the losses of the poles used by the RAF, you express doubts in the accuracy of the reports at least you pointed that some or many are missing.

Remi

Quote:

Originally Posted by RT (Post 69062)

I just gave my opinion/impression, based in my work, that is more than nothing, at least for me.

It really is a substantial number, especially if concentrations of such errors appear. For example, lack of say 200 hundred losses per year could be nothing, but if half of them is lost in a campaign like Crete, then it is a substantial difference. It is especially important, having in mind that some authors accuse pilots of deliberate overclaim, based on this data.

Quote:

Further is very unusual to find families asking for their relatives whose loss is not known

Actually I find it very rare families of German airmen asking for any veterans. Therefore there is no sample to draw any conclusions.

Quote:

Concerning the losses of the poles used by the RAF, you express doubts in the accuracy of the reports at least you pointed that some or many are missing.

Ah, yes, now I understand. I firmly believe RAF records are still superior to the German ones, mainly because of variety of records available. It is only better with other associated air forces.