Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Is there a difference between a Staffelkapitan and a Staffelfuhrer?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

From interviewing several of them over the years the following was a rough guide that I was given. Staffelkapitän was an actual appointment carrying with it the responsibility for the day-to-day running of the Staffel. A Staffelführer normally led the Staffel in the air.
Moving it up a level, when Erprobungsgruppe 210 lost Oblt Weymann on 5th October 1940, Wolfgang Schenck led the Gruppe on missions and was therefore the Gruppenführer. When Karl-Heinz Lessmann was posted in as Gruppenkommandeur on 1st November 1940, he took over all the normal work of a Gruppenkommandeur, but flew as No. 2 to Schenck on missions, as he had no experience of using the Bf 110 as a fighter-bomber. So, from 1st November 1940, Lessmann was the Gruppenkommandeur, while Schenck was the Gruppenführer.

Hope this helps.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Thank you John,

Rob

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

I thought that a Staffelkapitän was an officer officially assigned to the position, where as a Staffelführer was an individual temporarily leading the staffel in an acting capacity until official sanction came through that he was assigned to the duty position or replaced.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hi Andy,

I agree with you.

Robert

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Andy phrased it much better than I could have. A good example is Ofw. Rudi Zwesken who led 6./JG300 during early 1945, although not appointed StaKa. Gruppenführer was an SS rank - I don't believe it was used in the Luftwaffe - a JG 300 'Gruppenführer' - ie who led the Gruppe in the air - insisted all such references be removed from the JG 300 book. Better term is Verbandsführer..

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

I thought the German word (and I may get the spelling wrong here) Stellvertreter identified the individual who took on the administrative duties when there was no permanent person in charge. The Namentliche Verlustmeldungen that I have seen confirm this.

So, Martin Lutz was Stellv. Gr. Kdr. of Erprobungsgruppe 210 when Rubensdörffer was KIA on 15th August 1940, and Werner Weymann was Stellv. Staka of 1./Erpr. Gr. 210 for a short time when Lutz stepped up to be Stellv. Gr. Kdr. again after the loss of von Boltenstern. Both were confirmed in the posts within a few days.

Or perhaps Wolfgang Schenck, who knew his shit inside out on the Luftwaffe, got it wrong in conversations/discussions with me...

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hi, John

I think you have got it mostly right, based on what I have seen of records over the last years

A Staffelkapitän was the person which was given the permanent position to lead a Staffel, the smallest organizational tactical unit in the Luftwaffe system. This was sanctioned by the Personalamt of the Luftwaffe in the RLM.

A Staffelführer was a pilot tasked with leading the unit in the air. In some units and situations you would have the situation where a more seasoned lower-ranking pilot would lead the Staffel in the air due to his experience, while the Staffelkapitän lead another Schwarm, Kette or Rotte.

It was of course not uncommon that a situation were the Staffelführer led the Staffel when a Staffelkapitän was killed, wounded or transferred, until he subsequently was formally tasked with the job as Staffelkapitän.

We also have to take into the account here that the Wehrmacht operated with two kind of officers - the Truppenoffizier - a person that had attended the Kriegsschule and had a formal education as officer, and the Kriegsoffizier - a person which was promoted to officer rank due to his exploits and experience during the war.

From what I have seen it was not uncommon to give seasoned pilots with the rank of Feldwebel or Oberfeldwebel a promotion to Leutnant and at the same time give them the Staffelkapitän position. This was of course a makeshift arrangement due to the war and not a wanted thing by the RLM or Personalamt.

With regards to the term Gruppenführer, I have never seen it used in other than the SS context. However, that former Luftwaffe personnel would insist on this term not being used have more to do with post-war associations with this term and the SS in my opinion.

I think the bottom line should be that the term Staffelkapitän is a formal line of command position with given tasks and responsibilities as shown by the LDV, while the Staffelführer was an appointment given in the field.

The reason for the term Staffelführer appearing in loss lists for example would be for organizational reasons, with regards to what kind of replacements a unit would need at a given time.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

I do agree that the term Gruppenführer has unfortunate connotations. Führer of the Gruppe in the air until a permanent appointment was made might be more apposite.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Right, a Staffelfuehrer could be an NCO with experience, whilst a Staffelkapitaen was always an officer, usually at least Oberleutnant. My uncle was Staffelkapitaen 9. JG 3 as a Hauptmann, but he was also Stellvertretender Gruppenkommandeur of III. JG 3 after the wounding of Balthasar in September, 1940.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hi

Wim, I think you are positively wrong in your assumption.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Here's a list of SS ranks from the Dutch Wikipedia version, a Gruppenführer was indeed a high SS officer (luitenant-generaal): Hope you're able to translate the Dutch terms:

some terms: eerste = first, tweede = second

• SS-Mann, SS-Schutze - soldaat.
• SS-Oberschütze - soldaat tweede klasse.
• SS-Sturmmann - soldaat eerste klasse.
• SS-Rottenführer - korporaal.
• SS-Unterscharführer - sergeant.
• SS-Scharführer - 1e sergeant.
• SS-Oberscharführer - staf-sergeant .
• SS-Hauptscharführer - technische sergeant.
• SS-Sturmscharführer - sergeant-majoor.
• SS-Untersturmführer - tweede luitenant.
• SS-Obersturmführer - eerste luitenant.
• SS-Hauptsturmführer - kapitein.
• SS-Sturmbannführer - majoor.
• SS-Obersturmbannführer - luitenant-kolonel.
• SS-Standartenführer - kolonel.
• SS-Oberführer - brigadegeneraal.
• SS-Brigadeführer - generaal-majoor.
• SS-Gruppenführer - luitenant-generaal (1 ster).
• SS-Obergruppenführer - generaal (2 sterren).
• SS-Oberstgruppenführer - generaal (3 sterren).
• SS-Reichsführer - maarschalk.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Foute Man,
I did correct my use of the term 'Gruppenführer' in post 9 of this thread.

Wim,
I agree with Andreas on his comment on your post.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Guys

Without making the water more muddy than necessary I believe we have to differentiate between
a) Verbands Stellvertreter
b) Verbands Führer

The way I have understood it

a) was the individual who took over the Staffel/Gruppe/Geschwader leaders role, when ,for some reason, nobody had officially been appointed to this position, while
b) was the individual appointed to lead the unit in the air

I also believe that b was very much up to the intelligence and integrity of a OR the true appointed Kapitän, Kommodore etc. Not really sure what the upper Luftwaffe echolons stated in the matter. Perhaps all this was more or less silent agreement?

Cheers
Stig

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Stig,

a) was the individual who took over the Staffel/Gruppe/Geschwader leaders role, when ,for some reason, nobody had officially been appointed to this position,
This is 'Stellvertreter', as I outlined in an earlier post with regard to Erprobungsgruppe 210 during the Battle of Britain. I thought I had made it clear enough (via info from Wolfgang Schenck).


b) was the individual appointed to lead the unit in the air
This was 'Staffelführer, as I outlined in an earlier post with regard to Erprobungsgruppe 210 during the Battle of Britain. I thought I had made it clear enough (via info from Wolfgang Schenck).

Or maybe Oberstleutnant Schenck, who flew in the Polish campaign and then in every single theatre of the rest of the war, ending the war as Inspector of Jet Fighters, got it wrong with what he told me. Somehow, I just don't think he did.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

John

No need to go to war over the issue:)
Obviously there were enough responses to yours and others on the topic which made the situation a bit unclear, so I just put down my thoughts.

What is also rather obvious is that we in the end are saying pretty much the same thing...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

I'm not going to war with you over the issue. I'm just pointing out that I had explained all in an earlier post. I'm sure you have grasped it. If others haven't, then I don't know what else you and I can say.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Note that you could have as many Staffelfuhrers as you have missions for the day.
As well if the Staffelfuhrer need to abort the mission, for example cause of engine problem, then another member from the staffel will take the lead and become the new Staffelfuhrer.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

If the person leading the staffel in the air is the Staffelführer and this individual is the most experienced on that particular mission why does the term Staffelführer appear in the Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss returns and various unit Offizier Stellenbesetzung which implies that the Staffelführer was at least a semi official position rather than just the leader in the air for a particular mission. Schwarmführer and rottenführer (or kettenführer) don't appear in the Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss returns.

Also presumably an experienced leader in the air is required to control the number of aircraft dispatched by the staffel (in the case of fighter and bomber staffeln) so why would a Fernaufklärungs unit, dispatching single aircraft on missions, require a Staffelführer but the term Staffelführer is used in Fernaufklärungs Offizier Stellenbesetzung.

The term stellv.Gr.Kdr. was undoubtedly used for acting Gr.Kdr. (listed in Offizier Stellenbesetzung).

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Good point Andy. The II./LG 1 posted the loss of a Staffelführer in January 1945 but the mission was mining the Scheldt Estuary by night, which almost certainly didn't involve flying in any kind of formation or leadership in the air.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Docs refer to the term Staffelführer , some NVM for example, to designate one that in reality is the Staffel-Kapitän, war end particuliary

remi

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Don Caldwell in "The JG 26 War Diary Vol II" (p481 - Glossaries, 3. German Terms) defines Staffelführer as "Squadron Leader (temporary or probationary)"

Christer Bergström in "Black Cross Red Star Vol II" (xii - Glossary) defines Staffelführer as "German acting aviation squadron commander"

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hi, guys.

I think I should probably wait until my next shipment of microfilms from the NARA arrive before I comment this any further. It should contain a few thousand records on personnel dispositions, promotions etc

However...

The answer to the original question, if there is a difference between the Staffelkapitän and Staffelführer designations seem to be clear. There is a difference!

I also have a feeling that the Staffelführer term might be an official appointed term, but that this position was not a RLM and Personalamt appointment, but that it was done at unit level.

We have a simmilar situation with units also. For example, the 14th Staffel of JG 5, the so-called Jabo Staffel was created in a so-called 'auf dem Kommandowege' fashion. Thus - the unit was not created, nor ever fully approved, as a unit in the RLM GenQu system. It was to be a temporary unit, created using personnel and aircraft from the commanding unit (in this case the Luftflotte 5). Such units could later on be taken into the fold so to speak, and given an establishment strength of aircraft and pilots, but not necessarily. My example was not a proper unit ('etatisiert' was the word used by the germans), until it became an integral part of SG 5.

So I believe that the term Staffelführer was appointed to a person that led the unit in combat (Einsatzmäßig), and not necessarily (important! as I believe he could have both functions) organisational (or Personalmäßig). And that this appointment didn't have to involve the Personalamt and thus wasn't an official position.

Note that the Luftwaffe often use these distinctions also on units! Personalmäßig JG 11, Einsatzmäßig JG 5 unterstellt. (example from Norway)

I still believe that the reason the term occur in the GenQu documents are because it was important for the statistical and organisational units of the RLM to know that they had lost a seasoned veteran with an important function within the Staffel.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Well my two cents....and I will concentrate on the Staffelführer vs Staffelkapitän.

In my opinion you could be become Staffelkapitän if you had done a "Kapitänslehrgang". It did not matter if you were a (Tr.O) or a (Kr.O), at least I don't think so.

For instance, Hptm. Ewald Trost (POW 1.1.45) was St.Kap. of 2./JG 6. Hptm. Norbert Katz (KIA 1.1.45) was St.Fhr. of 5./JG 6, in spite of being a Truppenoffizier. Both pilots led their Staffeln in the air.

Towards the end of the war you see more and more Staffelführer i.s.o. Staffelkapitäne and they were more often even Lt. i.s.o. Oblt. or Hptm. There was simply a shortage of CO's. I have never seen a Leutnant being Staffelkapitän....

In some cases the Staffelführer did not lead the Staffel in the air....a senior Feldwebel or Oberfeldwebel might lead the Staffel in the air. I have seen examples even of an experienced Oberfeldwebel leading the Gruppe..... Furthermore there were Staffelführer i.V. (in Vertretung) and sometimes even a "stellvertretende" Staffelführer who was not a pilot...!!!. There was simply no officer pilot in the Staffel left! Unit was led in the air by a Oberfeldwebel (he wasn't called a Staffelführer!!!).

regards,

John.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hello,

Perhaps also the text that Don Caldwell has posted about this topic on the "old" TOCH back in 2003 may be of some interest:

„..(for the Tommies out there - can't think of an Ami equivalent off the top of my head) that was awarded to a candidate for Staffelkapitän who for reasons of rank, age, training, or experience was not considered qualified for the Staffelkapitän title. Your assumption that the "Kapitän" was an administrator while the "Führer" was the combat leader is false. In JG 26, NCOs who were eligible for promotion to Staffel command were always named first to the "Führer" position. If they worked out, they could be commissioned and given the "Kapitän" title (which was harder to revoke if they were duds). I believe that rarely or never did a Staffel have a Kapitän and a Führer at the same time -- the Führer was in all respects a Kapitän (without the title) and not a "deputy". I may be wrong (it happens) but I don't recall a specific title for a deputy Staffel leader, or 2nd-in-command - he would usually just have been the senior Schwarmführer. And sometimes the man who led the Staffel in combat had no title at all; he was just the best man for the job -- in JG 26, I can name Willius and Wiegand as two very junior NCOs who led their Staffeln at the request of their Kapitäne.

HTH and Horrido!

Don“

Hope this might help to clear this matter a little.

Ota

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hi, John

For your information a short list of persons listed as Staffelkapitäne with rank Leutnant (there are more):

Heinz Ebeling, 9./J.G.26
Eberhard Bock, 3./J.G.3
Heinz Berres, I./J.G.77
Willi Hörner, III./St.G.2
Friedrich Sellhorn, II./S.G.3
Georg Klauer, 1./N.S.Gr.2
Walter Kropp, III./J.G.301
Fritz Vinder, II./S.G.2
Heinrich Hackler, III./J.G.77
Hans-Ulrich Jung, III./J.G.3

I did not mean that you had to be a Tr.O. in order to become a Staffelkapitän.


Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Andreas,

Both Hackler (III./JG 77) and Jung (III./JG 3) are listed on the NVM as Staffelführer......!!!! I will look into this a lttile bit more.

cheers,

John

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

it was the same thing by the german army:

Kompanie-Chef and Kompanie-Führer.

Kp.Fü. was replacing the Kp.Chef and could be a Ltn. aswell. This condition could last months.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Andreas,

I checked numerous records and came up with the following;

Lt. Heinrich Hackler was Staffelführer 11./JG 77 until his death on 1.1.45. This is supported by NVM and other documents. I assume your source is RL2-III-1172/48, but that seems clearly an error.

Lt. Hans-Ulrich Jung was Staffelführer 10./JG 3 until his death on 1.1.45. Again supported by NVM. I assume your source is RL2-III-1172/68, which must be wrong.

Lt. Walter Kropp was a young pilot (still Ofhr in Nov 1944) and was Staffelführer 6./JG 301 on 14.1.45 when he was wounded and Staffelführer 8./JG 301 on 2.3.1945 when he was killed. Source: Notes from NVM.

Lt. Heinz-Edgar Berres was killed as Oberleutnant and Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 77 on 25.7.1943 (NVM). In March/April 1943 he led 1./JG 77 and 3./JG 77 as Staffelführer, at least that is my believe.

Lt. Eberhard Bock was still Staffelführer of 3./JG 3 on 24.6.1941 (NVM). This allthough he had led the Staffel since Sept 1940. He later became Oberleutnant and Staffelkapitän of 3./JG 3 which became later 6./JG 1.

The others I did not check, but if your sources are Gen.Qm. records only I would be very carefull. These records are not the most accurate ones.

Thanks,

John.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

The Staffelkapitän was appointed officially. The Staffelführer led an Staffel as long as there wasn't any new Staffelkapitän. For example at death. The more experienced pilot commanded the Staffel in the air without consideration on the rank. An Staffelführer only led an Staffel temporarily or on a trial basis. They could be appointed to Staffelkapitän officially if they proved themselves. Independent whether Kr.O. or Tr.O.

Kaczmarek

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Kaczmarek,

I agree, but do you know what was meant with a "Kapitänslehrgang"? This was stated to me by former St.Kap. as necessary to become St.Kap. It seems to me there was more to it than just being formally appointed Staffelkapitän.

To be absolutely certain if somebody was Staffelführer or Staffelkapitän one needs to assess as many documents as possible. NVM may help but also Soldbuch-entries, letters to relatives of KIA/MIA pilots, etc.

cheers,

John

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hi Andreas, you are totally right

I agree with the other the cracks of this forum, but:

In my opinion the original/former question were about the diffecence between a

Staffelführer

or a

Staffelkapitän

The discussion should not be led about if a none officer or if an officer had the special qualification, but:

If a Staffelkapitän was shot down and/or had problems during the combat(personal and/or technical) he had to be replaced by the next best, in the most cases by the most experienced pilot - disregarding his rank -

There are so many examples for this theme already in this thread, so I do not want to multiply them.

One thing which may give us to think us about from veterans as Walter Schuck, whom I asked:

Staffelführer ... Staffelkapitän

who remembers about the last days of war:

Oberleutnant Hans "Waldi" Waldmannn was Staffelkapitän of the 3,/JG 7 until the 18th of March 1945.

Short afer a scramle on the 18th of March 45 in Kaltenkirchen/Hamburg, he collided with his co, Hans Dieter "Hadi" Weihs and his Me 262.

Weihs could land his damaged a/c, Waldmann lost his life.

After the death of "Waldi" Waldmann, the officials did not announce "Hadi" Hans Dieter Weihs to be the next after Waldi Waldmann,

because they did not trust simply the blank sheets of the "talks" of Mr. Hadi Weihs.

Hadi Weihs, surely was a good fighter pilot, but his reputation among the other "Aces" was not so high.

Anyway, the officials did not believe Hadi Weihs story of the real ongoings of the 18th of Aptil 45 and made him (unespected to me) not ... so ... responsible for the death of Waldmann.

Weissenberger ordered Walter Schuck to overtake the 3. Staffel JG 7 as a Staffelkapitän on the 26th of March 1945.

In the meantime, a certain Oberleutnant Wagner was Staffelführer of the 3./JG 7, before Staffelkapitän Oberleutant Walter Schuck overtook the Staffel (3./JG 7) as as Staffelführer.

This is certified and true.

All the best, Horst

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Horst,

I am a little confused regarding your post. Can you explain on what part Andreas is right? That it did not make a difference if you were (Tr.O) or (Kr.O) is already not debated.

If you state that a Leutnant could be a Staffelkapitän I would like to see proof of that.....when Schuck became Staffelkapitän of 3./JG 7 he was already an Oberleutnant....so what are trying to say?

Thanks,

John

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hi John,

Schuck was promoted with the rank Leutnant "mit Wirkung zum 1. Juli 1944", see promotion document in his book "Abschuss", page 163.

Nearly at the same time (by end of July 1944) Major Heinrich Ehrler, Geschwaderkommodore of JG 5, named Schuck to be Staffelkapitän of the 10./JG 5 in Petsamo.

He still was Leutnant and Staffelkapitän of the 10./JG 5 in Gossen/Norway after the Germans had to withdraw from Petsamo. He kept this position as Staffelkapitän of the 10./JG 5, even after the 7th of November 1944, when he promoted to Oberleutnant. The rest (JG 7) you know.

Hope this helps.
All the best, Horst

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hi John,

I don´t know the term "Kapitänslehrgang" but I know the term "Verbandsführerlehrgang". Some of the former fighterpilots tell me he were commanded to such course to become St.kpt.
It is fact that the terms Staffelführer and Staffelkapitän were often mix up today because of ignorance. Im not sure whether "Verbandsführerlehrgänge" were still carried out to the end of war. The more experienced available officer then led the Staffel.

Kaczmarek

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hello Horst,

OK, you mean Lt. Schuck's period with 10./JG 5. I am pretty much convinced that he was officially Staffelführer of 10./JG 5 from August 1944 onwards and not Staffelkapitän. Perhaps Eric's next volume on JG 5 will show more details....

Hello Kaczmarek,

Verbandsführerlehrgang can't be the trick, that was established much later. Before that we already had Staffelführer's and Staffelkapitäne...perhaps somebody else can clear this up?

Thanks,

John.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

John,

you are definetely wrong.

Schuck was officially made to a Staffelkapitän (not a Staffelführer) onwards from July 1944 by the Geschwaderkommodore Major Heinrich Ehrler in Petsamo of the 10./JG 5.

This is fact.

You can not false the facts/history by - as you say - tricky meanings.

Sorry, if this does not fit into your "clearings". I can not help you with other ideas.

Best, Horst

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

Hello Horst,

Very funny, I wasn't aware of any tricks or me trying to falsify history or facts.....

thanks,

John.

Re: Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?
 

I think the timing of when during the war an officer was appointed as Staffelkapitaen might be noteworthy. I can only comment on my uncle's experiences, as he underwent a Lehrgang at the Fliegeruebungsstelle Frankfurt\Oder before the outbreak of war. Perhaps later in the war officers with suitable front-line experience were made Staffelkapitaen without the requisite Lehrgang.