Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

The recent thread on the Bf 109 H-1 has prompted me to get organised and post what I have on my website.

There are still lots of gaps in the story but I do have:

• The aircraft's Werk Nummer;
• Where it was converted;
• What engine, boost equipment, camera, radio gear and armament it carried;
• An account by someone who claimed to have flown it;
• What happened to it.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Great stuff Nick... thanks for sharing this with us :)

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Yes, I agree! Simply great!

Thanks,
Tomi

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

After all that testing and work. It's like an elephant giving birth to a peanut.

Wonderful investigative work, Nick!!

With the anti-aircraft people of all nations, the motto appears to be: "If it flies, it dies!" In his book on his Bomber Command experiences, Doug Harvey said that each time a raid was directed to fly over London out-bound on a mission, the AA would fire at the aircraft even though the number of aircraft and their direction should have left no doubt as to who they were.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

To Nick: Does your information come from HW5 records at the National Archives at Kew or from the Ultra messages at the same place???

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

From HW5/ and from the CSDIC (UK) SRA reports in AIR40/

HW5/ material is ULTRA, it is the the original deciphered material from which the "Main Series of Reports to Allied Commands" in DEFE3/ were compiled. HW5/ often gives far greater detail.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Hi Nick,

Just wondered if you had any further info regarding Uffz Luginger (4./(F)123) KIA on the 01.01.45. Do you by any chance know his first name? I have a photo of him stood by the nose of a Bf 109G of the 4th Staffel in May 1944. However, I cannot find burial details of him on the German War Graves site?

Any help would be appreciated.

Melvin

http://www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com/

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Maybe but I'll have to search. I have a mass of material yet to digest (indiscriminate use of a digital camera in a National Archive). One thought is that it wasn't 4.(F)/123 by 1 January 1945, it had been renamed as 2./NAG 1.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Hi all,

In the text from Nick Beale, one can read :

"The new aircraft was Werk Nummer 110073 and was fitted with a pressure cabin, a “DB 605-GS engine” (which Thomas H. Hitchcock identifies as an error for BS)"

DB 605 G was the first designation of DB 605 AM. DB 605 GS was in fact a DB 605 ASM

JCM

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

JCM,

Interesting information on the engines, thanks for sharing.

Nick,

Nice work as usual. Always regarded the H as a pink elephant.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

I'm happy to leave this to people who, unlike me, know something about engines! Tom sent me a spec sheet for the GS but I'll include your comments the next time I'm updating the site. Thanks.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Hi all,

Günther Specht's Bf 109 G-5 AS (with DB 605 ASM and without pressurisation) WNr 110064 was from the same series as the ones depicted by Nick Beale.

JCM

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Nick,

Do I understand correctly that the "H" can almost be regarded as a Rustsatz, or Umbausatz?

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

I don't think a greatly extended inner wing can be regarded as either. It may be that the prototype had only a "bodged" extension between standard wings and standard fuselage pick-ups: this would perhaps explain some of the severe limitations on manoeuvre described. A production version would have required strengthened root attachments, at least.

I think this aircraft also had an Me 209 tail?

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Mermet,

Something doesn't seem quite right with your engine designation information. If, as you say, there was a "GS" engine which, as you also report, was really the "ASM" engine, then how do you explain this particular G-5/U2 (with GM 1) having an ASM (M - MW 50) engine? From what I have read, the G-5 wasn't normally equipped with both powerboosting systems at the same time. Perhaps, the "GS" engine was really something else? Of course we now know that the H-0 was to have BOTH systems, but only after conversion. I am confused.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Modifying the G-5 to carry both a camera and an MW-50 tank would have been fun since, of course, first the main fuel tank would need to have been removed (since it provided the only access to the rear fuselage). Then the MW-50 tank was installed, followed by the recce camera, and then finally the fuselage tank would be reinstalled. After the provision of those two boosting systems, it seems strange that the aircraft would not also have been provided for the plumbing to carry underwing drop tanks to give it a decent range, or to place fuel tanks in the wing root sections as was planned in the report of 15.12.43, but not planned for the aircraft to be converted at Guyancourt.

For the report of 24.01.44 that details the changes to be completed at Guyancourt to create a 109H, see http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=13823&page=2. The report indicates that the vertical tail would be the 109G tall tail unit, while the horizontal tail was to be that of the Me 209. Did this happen? I don't know, but to have a larger horizontal tail to match the larger wing would seem to be a logical action.

As for the engine of this aircraft, the January 1944 document clearly states a DB 605 BS (a DB 605 A with modified gearing, as used on the Bf 110), together with the 3.4m propeller as used on the Me 210. But, the report mentions only a GM 1 unit, and not a MW-50 unit to be applied to the aircraft during conversion, although Nick's narrative declares that both were installed.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Well, if it helps you all to "rebuild" the Bf 109 H, here's the original decrypt about the equipment fit.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Thanks for that report, Nick. It's always interesting to see what was supposed to be done and compare it to what was actually done.

Thanks again,
George

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Newly posted to ghostbombers.com is update to the article on the Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123 establishing (I'm fairly confident in saying) who shot the machine down, the date and what happened to the aircraft afterward.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Excellent material as always, Nick.

After some thought I have come to the conclusion that the "GS" designation for the engine, was correct. The DB 605G engine was the forerunner of the DB 605AM. And, the people in charge might just have loaded a 603G supercharger onto a DB 606G engine that was no longer being used, and used that on the 109 G-5.

Anyway, thanks for posting that information, Nick.

All the best,
George

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

AFAIK, G/GS was used to describe an A/AS-engine with MW50 until June 44, when the AM/ASM designation was established.

Here is an example from the provisional instructions on MW50 usage in the Bf 109 (issued around late April/early May):

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...0_im_Bf109.jpg

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

In other threads on the DB 605G you will see that it was simply what was later called the AM. The test results being published in Summer 1943. So, I can see that there were enough internal differences between it and the production DB 605 AM that they probably just kept a few copies around. When the opportunity came to put an engine into a G-5 to create a 109H, they probably just pulled the G off the shelf, stuck a DB 603 G supercharger in it and sent it off to France. Thus the 'GS.'

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

George,

A good argument with an entirely plausible explaination. But I fear the jury is still out on this one.

Hal

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Well, the Germans seemed to think the engine was a GS. Do you have anything more accurate?

On the other hand, it's really all a big WAG, isn't it?

All the best,
George

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Well, that document is very explicit about what is a GS: a DB 605 AS with MW 50 (both delivering systems are described, via pressurization from supercharger or via an installed GM 1 system).

So IMHO, this G-5 just was fitted with an DB 605 AS and had it's GM 1 system modified to use MW 50.

But to each it's own...

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

No, I don't have any helpful or meaningful information on the DB 605 G or GS. But, it just seems odd that traditional reference works like Jane's or the Von Gersdorff & Grasmann volume make no mention of this engine. Maybe "odd" is not the right word given what seems to be a very narrow window of application.

It's a shame that that volume promoted by Motorbooks International ( I can't remember the precise title or authors) a few years back, dealing with German piston engines of the 1935-1945 period, failed to materialize. If it had, I'm certain they would have had at least one early subscriber.

Hal

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Since the DB 605 G is not very well known, here is a tabular and a graphic description of the engine from a report on adding MW50 to the DB 603 and the DB 605 of November 1943. You can consider the DB605G to be the prototype for the DB605AM, and comparing the performances of the two engines you would see they are virtually identical. Since the 605G was derived from the 605A, DB probably decided eventually to keep the DB 605 A designation.

And, as I said before, undoubtedly one of these engines was sitting around, so they slapped a DB 603G supercharger on it, and viola, a DB 605GS. Then a 75ltr MW tank behind the camera, and a GM-1 unit in the left wing, and you have the a/c described in Nick's message. Oh, and don't forget the wing stubs.

Hope this helps,
George

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

I've just updated the article on my website with some information about a mission that the Bf 109 H was ordered to fly, a few days after the Normandy landings.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Boy, they certainly seem casual about the flying of that mission over the beaches. And, it sounds like they never did fly that mission, or am I wrong on that?

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

I'm only up to about 14 June 1944 in the files so far, but no sign of it yet. I wonder if they managed any comparable coverage before the Ar 234s came on the scene?

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Just a few observations around the margins on this one, as it were: Oblt Kaiser of 5/123 flew a photographic sortie on June 7th 1944 (F30/44) during which standoff imagery was taken of the Allied shipping off Pagham harbour. Frames 872 and 873 of this sortie -obliques with a mid range scale of 1:12000 approx- were roughly mosaiced together to accompany an Intelligence Report (No 3478, Lfl 3 - Interpreter, Kallenberger). Clearly a single engined a/c involved. But not likely to be the H -or might it be?

Other covers of the bridge-head include Utah beach on June 12th (by I Nag 13; F66 and F67/44); and on the same day, an east-west strip including Pegasus bridge (F13/66) - pilot Oblt Geiger. All three sorties generated Intel reps. The numbers on June 12th (rising from F13 to F66) suggest Nag 13 at least was very busy that day, and doubtless other too. Some night stuff was also taken within a week or two south of Sword and Juno. Buried in this F sequence might be something taken by the 'H'.

Cheers


ChrisG

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Thanks for that info, Chris.

Re: Bf 109 H in service with 5.(F)/123
 

Some night stuff was also taken within a week or two south of Sword and Juno. Buried in this F sequence might be something taken by the 'H'.

Night picture is pretty complicated job, need Ju88 experiment over Alexandria in 1943, seems results deluded people

Bf109G-5 of 4.F123 had DB605AS with GM-1+MW50, 110073 too

Remi