Exports to Japan
 

Hi

Yesterday I looked through all the original paperwork for export of German a/c to Japan, all have w/n number quoted except for three Fh 104 a/c that were to be used as photographic a/c. Question is did these three get delivered and what was the w/n

Tony

Re: Exports to Japan
 

I have never encountered any reference to the Fh 104 in Japan and no such aircraft were listed as exported there.

Lennart Andersson

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Lennart

I haven't heard from you for a while!!

There were many original letters with price and delivery on these 3 Fh 104 a/c but no indication of an order, so you are probably correct in saying none went. There were similar docs on Ju, Bf and Fw a/c and these had confirmation of orders and c/n of the a/c involved. There were 2 Bf 108 with c/n to Manchu Koku K.K
There were lots of letter on trying to sell L 25 for glider towing duties but the Japanese politely stalled on an order before saying no thanks. They also tried to sell them the DLH Ha 139 fleet!!

Tony

Re: Exports to Japan
 

While talking about aircraft exports to Japan, I found several German export documents with indication on two Hs 129s that were supposed to be sold there. However, I found no confirmation if this sale was actually completed (I suppose not). Can you confirm/infirm this sale?

Thanks,

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hi Denes

Lots of correspondence re these but no confirmation orders in the files, these files complete from 38-45 and any orders placed appear to be in the files, so my view Denes is no sale took place

Tony

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Thanks, Tony. That's what I thought, too, but had no confirmation so far.

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hi all,
Can anyone confirm how many of the He-119 aircraft went to Japan and if they actually got there? I believe 2-3 were supposed to go?

Re: Exports to Japan
 

On the other hand there is a report on exports prior to 31.3.1944 (probably for March 1944, as the previous report is dated 29.2.1944) saying that two Hs 129 had been exported to Japan.

Lennart

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Denes

I will re-look at the files and copy any letter or you re Hs 129

Tony

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Some time ago (april 2008) I asked if anybody has any informations on DFS 230 delivered to Japan. According to some letters, a Japanese company ordered three units in late 1942 to be delivered in early 1943. Any evidence that these aircraft were delivered to Japan ?

Best regards, Peter Ocker

Re: Exports to Japan
 

hello, Tony,
i can confirm this:
they exported stuka to japan and junkers had a "good" contact with mitchubishi i found even docs were the 2 symbols were printed under eachother.
thats all what i know from stuka .maybe it helps
kind reg
phil

Re: Exports to Japan
 

So no info on the He-119s anyone?

regards
Peter

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hello Peter,

according to this post Heinkel expert Volker Koos suspects the two aircraft supplied to Japan were V2 and V4. Koos' reasoning is that there is no hard evidence for more than four aircraft built, V1 was destroyed in an accident, and V3 was donated to a German Museum.
Seems plausible, perhaps Tony can confirm?

Hans

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hans,
thank you. I have read those posts but was wondering if anything further had turned up in the last few years.

Peter

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Does anyone have any info on the Me 262 that was "supposedly" on the
U-boat U-234 which surrendered enroute to Japan. I use the term supposedly because there is apparently no record of it in the US.

Walt

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Peter

I copied the original Gotha confirmation of order number 1883 dated 29/12/42 and order revision dated 13/1/43 for :-
3 DFS 230 RM211,440.00
1 Gerktesatz II Ordnung 773.50
1 Staz Ballastkisten 681.00
Verpackuns Kosten 17,000.00
Total value or order RM229,894.50

I also found a list of all a/c exported via Fokkes und Koch up to the end of 1943. This firm were responsible for all aircraft and motor bike exports.

Tony J

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hello Hans. Which post on the forum you quoted is by Volker Koos?

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hello Dénes,

post #6. I should have written "according to this post by Stig Jarlevik, Heinkel expert Volker Koos suspects ...". Sorry for the confusion.

Hans

Re: Exports to Japan
 

hi all,
Further to my search for if the He-119 planes (V-7 and V-8 or V-2 and V-3) went to Japan I have had the following reply over on the Japanese planes forum by Jim Long:
http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index....51880#msg51880
My own research brings up a reference in the 'Wings of Fame' series written by auther David Donald (well published author) that support it too. In Volume 12 of this series there is a supeb 6 page article with great photos.

I am posting this at LEMB too.

regards
Peter

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Some primary sources for exports to Japan may be found in the monthly reports of various manufacturers to RLM as well as the USSBS working folders. Another document is the shipping manifests from a captured U-boat at wars end with some aviation material aboard. For JFM, the overall documentation seems pretty good.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hi Artie,
Thanks for the info.
Now firstly excuse my lack of knowledge but what is 'USSBS' and 'JFM'? And where would I find internet links to the shipping manifests and the 'working folders'?

regards
Peter

Re: Exports to Japan
 

USSBS is the United States Strategic Bombing Survey, most working folders with interrogations and company data are at USNA College Park, MD. JFM is the abreviation often used for Junkers. Most of the data can only be accessed at College Park, these are the original documents and have not been scanned or microfilmed to my knowledge. The WWII Correspondence has been microfilmed and I believe indexes are available online, but not the documents.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Gentlemen

Since I am quoted in this correspondance at one point with a discussion of the type He 119 from LEMB, may I just point out that as far as I am aware, nothing has been published or found which refutes Volker Koos deductions in his Heinkel Vol 2 book published in 2003.

What he list still stands and anyone believing more than four He 119 were built and that any other airframes than the V-2 and V-4 were exported to Japan, has to my mind quote some new found documents saying otherwise. To quote Japanese sources written in the early 1970's etc is not productive. It is like checking William Green's books and/or articles from the 1960's and 1970's. Good at the time they have been superseeded since both once and twice.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Stig,
Hi.
Thanks for replying.
I have found the book of Volker Voos on Abebooks (amongst others of his) and I am tempted to buy it. I wonder if it has been translated into English? I have a lovely book about the Dornier company and it's planes in English. If you have seen this book can you tell me how many pages or paragraphs are devoted to the He-119? And if it has any photos?
Is there any chance of contacting Mr Voos do you think?
I agree that a lot of authors have probably copied the errors of earlier authors without checking the evidence for themselves.

regards
Peter H

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hello,

I would be interested to know the name or designator for the Junkers (JFM) collection and some further details about it. I was not aware of any original documents that had not been transferred back to Germany and that was not mictofilmed.

Lennart Andersson

Re: Exports to Japan
 

I can only second Lennart's request. I've searched the USNA website to see if I could locate the online index but without any luck so any hints or help would be great.

/Mikael

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hallo Peter

If you are interested in Heinkel, I suggest you try to get both volumes, since they are first class. My general opinion is that Volker Koos keeps a very high standard when it comes to research and writing.

Three pages are devoted to the He 119 in the book

Herrn Koos has also written a book about Arado and hopefully his book about Dornier will follow this year.

He is also a man not afraid to stick his face out and always put his e-mail address in the book.

If you send me a private e-mail I will give his e-mail address to you
Cheers
Stig

Re: Exports to Japan
 

From the files of BA/MA RL 2 III/647 containing information about war material exported to foreign and friendly countries, the following aircaft were exported to Japan from 1937 to 1943:
1937: 3 He 118, 4 He 112, 5 Bü 131, 1 Ju 86, 2 Ju 87.
1938: 1 He 116, 26 He 112, 1 Bü 131.
1939: 14 Bü 131, 1 Bü 133, 2 Bf 108.
1940: 2 He 100.
1941: 1 Ju 88, 2 He 119, 2 Bf 109, 1 Fi 156.
1942: 1 Me 210, 1 FW 190, 3 Ju 88.
1943: 2 Bf 109, 3 Me 210, 2 Do 217, 1 FW 190.
In a document giving the situation on 29.02.44 also 2 Hs 129 are listed as ready but could not be transported.
In list dated 31.12.44 2 He 177 and 1 Fa 330 were reserved for export to Japan. They were most likely never delivered.

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hi Seaplanes.
Sorry, but what are BA/MA RL files? And do they have further information such as dates, ships names, arrived safely or sunk etc?

regards
Peter

Re: Exports to Japan
 

BA/MA is Bundesarchiv Militärarchiv in Freiburg. RL is the signature for Luftwaffe documents. Unfortunately my information is in a statistical form only. There are other files containing more detailed information, but the RL 2 III signature is closed for restoration by the arhive.

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Lennart,
I assume you are the author of the book on Soviet aviation and if so may I say what a superb book it is! Great information, pictures and drawings.

Peter H

Re: Exports to Japan (Soviet aviation)
 

Yes, I am. Thank you very much. I am glad you liked it.

It is quite some time now since I made the research for that book and much new information has been published since then, at least if you are able to read Russian! If you are interested I can tell you that a new book with a lot of information that has never been published before is coming up. It is about civil aviation in the Soviet Union until 1945. Please take a look at
http://z-bok.se/catalog1.2.html
for more details!

If Artie Bob reads this post I would like to ask him again about the Junkers collection at the National Archives.

Best regards,
Lennart Andersson

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hi

I have looked again at copies I took of original letters on exports on Japan and there is a list dated late 1943 of all a/c and engines exported to Japan via Fokkes & Koch (only firm allowed to export a/c to Japan), this list gives all sale prices and dates. There is no sale listed of any He 119 in 1941.
The list by Seaplanes is also "flawed" as there were 2 Ju 160 a/c exported in 1938, none on this list (a letter dated 8/9/38 complains that one of the two Ju 160 just delivered has already crashed a few days ago)
There were 2 x ju 88 in 1941 not on Seaplanes list and in 1942 2 Fw 190 are listed not just the one in Seaplanes list, 1943 3 Fw 190 all with c/n are listed not just the one in the Seaplanes doc.
The Seaplanes list has one He 116 in 1938 but there were two, one crashed in the Sahara in 6/43. The 1944 list therefore should not be taken as final and correct.
Nearly all the a/c exported in the files have the c/n listed
Finally in the many files inpected which appear complete from 1938-44 there is no mention at all of any He 100 a/c.

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hello Tony,

you do have a lot of interesting details on aircraft exports from Germany.
Can you please give the record reference for these files.
I only gave the information directly from the document of Bundesarchiv in Freiburg in my previous reply.

Re: Exports to Japan
 

This is an interesting but rather complicated subject, even if original documents are used as sources. There are several causes for conflicting data: Export statistics will contain different figures if they reflect date of acceptance at the factory, date of dispatch from the factory or date of shipping, and these dates might be different for a batch of, say four aircraft. Some aircraft WERE delivered from the factory but were diverted or destroyed on their way to Japan so never arrived there.

Two He 119s were ordered by the Japanese Navy. Partial payments were made in 1939 and by May 1940 Heinkel was discussing the release of these aircraft for export. He argued that they had no value at all for the Luftwaffe as they had been built especially for Japan. A report on Heinkel for the period January-March 1941 states that the purchase by Japan of two He 119Ks was now complete and final payment was due. This normally means that the aircraft has been delivered.

The RDLI export statistics contain 2 He 119 to Japan in 1941.

According to Volker Koos, Heinkel delivered He 119 SV2 and SV4 to Japan, but the problem with this is that these aircraft were part of a batch of prototypes built to RLM orders. The designation He 119K probably indicates that they had been built for export from the outset.

Japanese sources show that two He 119s were imported.

Lennart Andersson

Re: Exports to Japan
 

I checked my - admittedly incomplete - RLM documents on aircraft exports to Japan from 1942 on.

I found info on Do 217K, Me 109, Me 210, Fw 190, Hs 129 (not delivered), Hs 130 Erpr. Träger, Ar 196, He 177, Fa 330 (deliveries of both of these types unconfirmed), even some Würzburg radars, but no entry for the He 119 (probably the export had been complete by then).

The only trace of He 119s going to Japan is a general statistical table, which lists 2 of these types delivered in 1941 - as noted by the previous posters.

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Seaplanes

The 3 large archive boxes are just labelled as Fokkes and Koch files captured in Tokyo. Other captured original files on exports to Japan have been incorporated with the F&K files, such as Messerschmitt, Klem, Fiesler plus a large file which I took to be from the Lawyer involved.
There are many hundreds of pages including Herr Fokkes monthly expenses sheets, plus his death card and original letters on condolence to his wife, plus copies of her replies. I only bothered to copy about 60 pages that were of particular interest to me.
There are also some original orders from Japan included, interestingly all these are written in english, as were some of the German Quotations for equipment.
These files are in the UK

Tony

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Hi all,
I have received a reply from Mr Volker Koos and he very kindly translated his information on the He-119.
Here are three paragraphs from what he kindly sent to me:
also,
and:
So it would seem that 2 He-119s made it to Japan and may well have been V-2 and V-4.

Many thanks to Mr Koos for his time and trouble and to others for their interest in this matter.

regards
Peter H

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Tony et al.,
Fokkes & Koch represented the following German companies in Japan:
Junkers
Focke-Wulf
Messerschmitt
Fiesler
Klemm
Siebel
Blohm & Voss
Gothaer Waggonfabrik
Argus motoren
Gustav Schwarz
Mechanishe Werkstatten Neubrandenburg
Optische Anstakt C.P. Goertz
Friedrich Krupp

This means that any export or export efforts made for Heinkel, Henschel and other companies would not be covered in the Fokkes & Koch files which could explain the lack of references to He 100 or He 119.

It's quite interesting to note that F&K represented companies approaching the same market segment with competing designs...
/Mike

Re: Exports to Japan
 

Mickael,
Very useful and interesting info. SO the question is WHO handled Heinkels exports?