DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hi guys,

Got a DB605 ASO I am trying to figure out who, when, and where it was built. I beleive it was hsg (Dieck, W., Werk 1, Apparatebauanstalt, Aussig-Türmitz/Sud)…but any info would be great!

Also, what is teh differnece between the ASM and ASO??


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DB605zzz.jpg


Thanks!





Mike

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hello Mike,

I've studied a bit the DB 605 serials. The "007" in the serial number of your DB 605 ASO indicates in general a DB 605 A from the Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH, Genshagen Kreis Teltow (production code hsq). Interesting for me is your production code hsg of the W. Dieck, Apparatebauanstalt, Werk 1, Aussig-Türmitz/Süd. Please check once again the stamping, perhaps the g is a q. On the other hand, perhaps the W. Dieck Werk was a subcontractor of the Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH, and assembeld engines for them. I have another DB 605 serial close to yours (DB 605 A-1 007/07111 from the Bf 109G-6/U2 WNr.412951) also with the producer code hsg. Until now I thought is was a typing/transfer error, but now you could clear this up.
Can you please send me a bigger scan of the production plate?

best regards,
Tomislav

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

The "O" in the ASO engine designation stands for "octane select", which means it could use both B4 and C3 fuel. The ASM is a DB 605 A with enlarged superscharger intake (S) and MW50 methanol-water injection device (M), uses C3 fuel.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

IMHO, It's AS-0, i.e. Nullseries.

I've seen flight reports with this designation, as well as some with AS-1.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hello Ivan,

You could be right! The serial number of the above DB605 is closer to the serials of "regular" DB 605 A's then the late war DB 605 ASMO's.

thanks,
Tomislav

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hi Guys!

From what I found out, hsg is Dieck, W., Werk 1, Apparatebauanstalt, Aussig-Türmitz/Sud. Will have to view if it is hsq and get back to you.

Will get a close-up of the tag...


So...a 605 ASO is nothing more than a 605A...but could take both fuels? So no MW50 and enlarged intake? Tomislav, you mention "S" stand for enlarged "S"upercharger, and "M" meaning "M"ethanol...however Supercharger in German is "Lader". So...is there an actual German determination for the "S"?

As this is an ASO, would that not make it an A with the enlarged Supercharger and NO MW50? also, could it take the MIXED B4/C3?


Mike

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Greetings all,

Regarding DB 605 ASO, WNr. 007 007288, I have several engines with WNrn. close to this example in my database files, four of which are listed as “ASO.”

ASO 007 06105
ASO 007 06171
ASO 007 06287
ASO 007 06288

Most of these are listed as being built by Daimler-Benz Motoren, Genschagen Kreis Tetlow, with the Hersteller code “hsq.” However, as Tomislav correctly points out, some sources list their Hersteller codes as “hsg.” I have always assumed that this was just a typo or misreading of the codes by the documenters…but who knows? The engines above and below these ASO numbers are “normal” A-1s.

More ASOs are found in the following series:

ASO 007 0952?
ASO 007 09767
ASO 007 09822
ASO 007 09842
ASO 007 10020

I also have several ASMOs interspersed among a long list of A-1s:

ASMO 007 10942
ASMO 007 11138
ASMO 007 11234
ASMO 007 11476
ASMO 007 11622

Interestingly, and reflecting the fact that DB 605 ASs were rebuilt from DB 605 A-1s, many of these ASOs also displayed three, four or five digit “rebuild” numbers.

Steve Sheflin

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

@ Mike
Your DB 605 is definitely an AS (DB 605 A + enlarged supercharger intake). The "S" stands for Sonder (german for special, but refering to the different supercharger intake).

@ Steve
I have three more ASMO's to add to your list
ASMO 007 10179
ASMO 007 10829
ASMO 007 10938

Perhaps someone with more technical knowlage could explain how this "octane select" worked ?!

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Somewhere I seem to recall a report indicating the "O" meant "bi-fuel" capability but in the context of powerboosting fuels and specifically "oxygen" (GM 1) and/or MW. Does that sound familar to anyone?

Hal

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hi guys:

In reference to codes...I pulled this from LWAG:


Olivier Lefebvre
Re: Online source for manufacturer codes?
Wed Oct 27, 2004 20:01
82.120.135.124

doa : Gothaer Waggonfabrik Aktiengeselschaft, Gotha

mcu : Erla Maschinen Werke G.m.b.H, Flugzeugbau, Leipzig N 24, Wer 1, Heiterblick 17 d

hsg : Dieck, W., Werk 1, Apparatebauanstalt, Aussig-Türmitz/Sud.

hsq : Daimler-Benz Motoren G.m.b.H, Genshagen Kreis Teltov

jlt : Rautenbach, Rudolf, Leichtmetallguss, Solingen



So it sounds like there is an hsg and hsq

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

I have a test dated 17.4.44 on a Bf 109G W.Nr. 26108, SL+RR, powered by DB 605 A-So (sic) W.Nr. 10100702626 (sic). They were testing the effectiveness of the underwing radiators with the top 21 percent of the radiators blocked off. When blocked, the efficiency of the radiators dropped by 5 percent, from 91% to 86%.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know, and would they mind posting, the code numbers for the various companies building the DB 605? Thanks.

All the best,
George

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hello again,

George, your test report just confirmed what Hilmar from the LBB Forum explained to me - there was no DB 605 ASO!
The designation "ASO" is in fact "ASo" indicating a normal AS engine. In the official Daimler-Benz correspondence, both the "ASo" designations and the "AS" were used.
The "So" has its roots in the Sonderausführung (german for special edition), the same as the "S" only the second letter was sometimes added. It is just a different stamping but meaning the same - an DB 605 A with an enlarged supercharger intake.

@ George
In what codes are you interested in? The three-letter producer codes or the three-number producer codes incoorporated into the engine serial number?

best regards,
Tomislav

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Just to confirm then...

There is no MW50 correct?

I am working with the re-build of a 109 and need to make suer that no MW50 is needed or was installed on the AS-O

:)

Mike

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Correct!

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

The later AS engines and D engines used a special device to quickly change the timing of the engine to accomodate whatever octane fuel the unit could get or was delivered to them.

Back in the "old days" of working on Chrysler "hemi" engines we could do the same thing by adjusting the distributer position.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Tomislav,

If your interpretation of the meaning of the "O" suffix is correct, i.e. "SOnder," then how do you explain the examples cited by S. Sheflin in which the "O" appears after the "M" as in "ASMO" ? Something is wrong here. It seems to me, for your explaination to be valid, then the order of letters should have been "ASOM", but that's not what happened.

Hal

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Not sure if this will help or add to the confusion?

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

I still think the dataplate means AS0 (zero number), designating the build-series.

So far I've seen DB 605 A-0, A-1, A-2, AS-0, AS-1, D-0, D-1 and D-2, as well as DB 603 A-0, A-1, A-2 and A-3.

Just MHO :)

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Tomislav:
Since the Germans often printed zeroes as lower case Os, I would take the A-So to mean AS-0.

I am interested in the 3-number zero within the engine serial number for the DB 605. I have those for the DB 603 and would be happy to pass them on. Compared to the DB 605 there aren't many.

All the best,
George

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hello,

The possibility that the ASO or ASo is in fact AS-zero ist still high. That would also then explain the ASMO - being ASM0. I'm trying to get an official list of subvariants of the DB605 from Daimler-Benz. If I recieve anything I will post it here. Perhaps then we will know more.

@ George
Here are the known codes:

002 - still unknown (DB 605A)
012 - still unknown (DB 605D)
112 - still unknown (DB 605D)
004 - Carl Fickert Maschinenfabrik, Schwarzenbach/Saale (DB 605) ?!? - unconfirmed
011 - Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH, Kassel (DB 605A & D)
111 - Henschel-Flugmotorenbau GmbH, Kassel (DB 605D)
007 - Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH, Genshagen Kreis Teltow (DB 605A)
117 - Daimler-Benz Motoren GmbH, Genshagen Kreis Teltow (DB 605D)
019 - Steyr-Daimler-Puch A.G., Werk Steyr (DB 605A)
119 - Steyr-Daimler-Puch A.G., Werk Steyr (DB 605D)

regards,
Tomislav

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Thank you very much for the codes, Tomislav.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Tomislav,

Regarding your list of DB 605 producers, I show the following Hersteller codes and manufacturers for two of them:

002 (A-1) = Pommersche MB (hss)*
004 (A-1) = Fiat, S.A., Turin (kwm)**

*I cannot recall why now, but I have always listed the “002” series as being produced by Pommersche MB. However, several of my sources list the maker codes as “hss,” Niedersächsische Motorenwerke G.m.b.H., Braunschweig-Querum, Steinriedendamm 15, and not Pommersche MB. Any suggestions.

**I only have four 004 listings. Two of the four listings show “kwn” (Donau-Flugzeugbau, Csepel-Budapest) as the maker, but I think it may have been Fiat (kwm).

Steve Sheflin

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

A PS to my last posting:

My source for the "kwn" references are Crashed Enemy Aircraft (CEA) report 257.

Steve Sheflin

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hi,

The letter "O" in DB 605 ASO, DMO, ASMO is for "Oktan-Selektor". This device permitted indifferently the use of B4 or C3 fuel.
On the late versions of the DB 605, i.e. DB 605 D, the O was replaced by B for B4 fuel and D for C3 fuel and MW 50, giving respectively the DB 605 DB and the DB 605 DC.
That was the same for the DB 605 ASB and DB 605 ASC which appeared at the beginning of 1945.
If you study the different engine WNr series you'll see that the engines with the suffix "O" have higher WNr than the first version to which they are attached : DB 605 ASMO have higher WNr than the DB 605 ASM, DB 605 DMO have higher WNr than DB 605 DM and lower WNr than DB 605 DB/DC, etc.
It's clear the suffix "O" is the letter and not the digit "0"... and means really "Oktan-Selektor".

Cheers,
JCM

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

It was not only the late 605 versions, the A version also became the DB605AB as underlined by maintenance documents.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

II'm sorry, Olivier, but I don't quite understand what you are saying because, as I recall, the only difference between the 605A and 605B was their reduction gearing.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

He means DB 605 AB, i.e. a DB 605 A (AM) set to run at 1.45/1.80 ata, not the "plain" DB 605 A-B.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Exactly.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Thank you for that. It appears we need to memorize a completely new nomenclature here.

In looking through other DB 605 engine numbers, I have a feeling that since Genshagen was, so to speak, DB's home ground it would be most convenient for DB to pull the test engines off that production line, such as the several ASo engines mentioned. I also have a couple of test 605Gs from that factory: 007 00912 and 007 01237.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Sorry, no info on "oktan selektor" in my references, only precise details for setting-up injection pumps to suit specific late engines (DB/DC).
0 series engines were usually early production of a new type.
HTH

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

The Americans found at least two Bf109 with AS-o engine in France.
One G-5 serial 110351 at Corbeil and another G-5 at Caen.They were all High altitude fighter with Press cockpit.These may br a clue.

Eduardo.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hi Eduardo,
My info is that the 0 series engines were early production with shorter overhaul lives for trend monitoring. I suspect that this practice ended late in the war as there is no mention of an 0 series in the 605DB/DC documentation that I have. The latest 0 series I have seen is a DB605DM-0. 605AS-0 would have come earlier and, I would expect the 605ASM-0 also existed as an 0 (zero) series.

Re: DB605AS info - need to determine WHERE and WHEN?
 

Hi,
I am not an expert in Daimler engines but I can only say that all Bf 109 with 605 AS-O found ,including the 26108 were G-5 .The G-5 had a compressor in the right side of the engine to build up cabin pressure .
Eduardo.