Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Hi All,

I'm hoping someone can help me. My father, Lt. Stanley Canner, was a Mustang pilot with the 12 TRS/67 TRG. He was shot down 14 July 1944 at approx. 1917h in the Caen/Falaise area, into occupied territory. Where he parachuted to is both in the Falaise (to the northeast) area and south of Caen (to the southeast.)

He successfully evaded for 6 weeks with help from the Maquis.

His MACR states (upon his return) that he was at about 2,000 feet when he was hit and bailed-out at 1,500 feet.

There are three claims for a Mustang at that time on that day, Grislawski (in the Falaise area at 1,200 feet,) Ihlefeld (south of Caen at 3,600 feet,) and Vogel (no location.) Because Vogel's K Report states that he witnessed that Mustang pilot bail-out and land in Allied territory, I have eliminated him.

Could someone translate the pages from Jochen Prien's book regarding 14 July 1944 for me? I have the pages and can post or email.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,

Neil Canner

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Neil,
Put the text into a on line translator. That might be your best answer.

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Thanks Nokose. I tried that but it didn't work well. A member here sent a PM and offered to translate it for me.

Thanks everyone!

Neil

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Another possible solution is that they all had a hand in shooting down Lt. Canner. All three of these pilots reported a Mustang kill at the same time, The MACR report [6662]describes the scene as: "...sections of aircraft peel[ing] towards us with black smoke pouring from their exhaust. They came at me at varying altitudes and both sides.", and there were no other reported Mustang casuaties.

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

It is odd that three Mustangs were shot down at the exact same time of the same day but I have excluded Vogel because he stated that he witnessed the Mustang pilot he shot down bail-out and land in Allied territory. Lt. Canner went down about 20 miles behind the lines.

Adding to the oddity is that only one MACR was generated for a Mustang on 14 July 1944, that of Lt. Canner's #6662.

I have the MACR and that statement is from Capt. Rusten, who was on the mission with my father. Capt. Rusten is still alive and I am in contact with him. He remembers the mission vividly.

The one thing that bothers me about both Ihlefeld and Grislawski having a hand in shooting Lt. Canner down is the different altitudes they reported. Ihlefeld's claim is for 1,200m and Grislawski's claim is for 400m. Though their locations differ, Falaise and Caen are very close to each other, and he went down between both cities, so that does not eliminate either of them.

Does anyone know if the Germans gave half credits as the USAAF did if two pilots were shooting at an aircraft?

I appreciate the feedback.

Neil

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

There were no shared kills in the Luftwaffe.

If you send me a scan of the relevant german text, I can translate it into english.

EDIT: Maybe on of the germans misidentified his victim. Do you know if there was any other allied loss at that time? If not, it certainly looks like a double or even triple claim.

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

yogybar,

I don't have the times but there are 7 MACRs for P-47s on the 14th though it's hard to imagine a German pilot confusing a P-47 with a P-51.

On the other hand, Ihlefeld claimed a Spitfire 2 minutes after his Mustang claim, so I would assume there were Spitfires in the area. Possibly Ihlefeld or Grislawski made the error in identity, a Mustang instead of a Spitfire.

One thing I do know for certain is that Lt. Canner and Capt. Rusten were not with any Spitfires on that mission nor did they encounter any. Capt. Rusten told me that they were surprised to run into the German fighters that day, "They weren't supposed to be there" he told me.

It could be just a matter of over reporting claims.

A member here has offered his assistance in translating the pages for me but I thank you for offering.

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

You would be surprised!

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Maybe, but it wasn't like they were far away and could have made such an error. P-47s don't look anything like a P-51 and they were right on Lt. Canner's tail.

"Five or six were on my tail. Three were actually firing on me" was Canner's statement from his E & E Report.

Does anyone know how I might be able to locate mission summaries from JG1 regarding 14 July 1944? I was told a couple of years ago that they are in private hands and that possibly one of you could help me.

Thanks,

Neil

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Hi Neil,

Franek is right. Aircraft were constantly mis-identified, even ones that seem quite different in appearance. Pilots of all nationalities were guilty of this. Also remember it wasn't uncommon for friendly aircraft to be engaged due to mis-identification.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Thanks Franek and Andy.

I respect and appreciate your views and feedback. I know that errors in identification occurred on all sides. Maybe I'm trying to give more credit than I should to Ihlefeld and Grislawski due to their experience. Who knows. In the heat of battle, mistakes happen.

I'm just trying to cover all bases available to find out which one of them shot my father down for a book I'm writing. It's not a big deal but if the info is out there' I'd like to find it.

For anyone interested, the story is due to be published in FlyPast. Not certain but I believe the December issue.

Thanks guys!

Neil

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Neil
A little bit time ago, on the old forum, we have had a lengthy discussion trying to identify an aircraft visible on a guncam still. Despite armchair conditions, good knowledge of silhouettes, and plenty of time available, it was never 100% identified, guesses being Fw 190, Ju 87, Me 109 or Ta 152.
Also, quite recently I have seen some guncam films, and sometimes I needed a replay to assure as to the type visible.
In the heat of combat you would not have that chance.

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Franek,

Good points and duly noted.

Neil

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Guys

Although I agree with everyone that it can be highly difficult to ID aeroplanes in combat depending on experience, light conditions, number of aeroplanes engaged, G-forces, stress, look-a-like types etc etc, it is no point in refering to gun camera films with regard to possible pilot identification problems. The gun-camera was not supposed to be a cinemascope show and it was almost impossible to ensure it was shake free. Also even when filming under G-forces even if not shooting at the same time, an aeroplane is always shaking to some degree. The human eye is far better to adapt to these small rapid movements than the camera...

Cheers
Stig

Re: Grislawski or Ihlefeld
 

Thanks Stig.

Those are also good points and I highly agree that pilots, and especially experienced fighter pilots, were well educated in aircraft recognition. Both Grislawski and Ihlefeld each had more than 100 kills by this time.

My father identified them as Me 109s a couple of minutes before he was spotted. And that was at a greater distance than when they were right on his tail and should have been able to easily identify his a/c type. Also, the air battle lasted about ten minutes. More time for a correct type I.D.

If the translation reveals no new information then I would suppose that both Grislawski and Ihlefeld had a shot at him and made the claim or it might just be a simple case of over reporting by one of them.

I am under the impression that both Grislawski and Ihlefeld were operating out of the same airfield, La Fere, that day. If that's true it is highly probable they were both on that mission.

Can anyone confirm that?

Neil