Pre-war training unit codes
 

Hello...

Any chance someone may be able to help me out with this query?

According to Alain Fleuret's Luftwaffe Camouflage 1935-40 (Kookabura), p76, he states that on 1 June 1936, as part of the general recoding of all Luftwaffe machines, training units were henceforth coded with an 'S' (Schule) as their new code prefix, the example given being S7+B96. This stood for aircraft 96 within the Schule, Flight 'B' (2nd Flight) of the training school, within Luftkreis 7, HQ at Braunschweig. He continues by indicating that within the same given school, both the old number system and the new letter/number combination could be seen in use.

Given the above interpretation of S7+B96, I am a little confused about two pictures I have seen, one of a Ju52 coded S17+B01 and the other a He111B coded S13+D23. Although I understand the mechanics of the above 'S7' code, these other two codes do not fit the rule, as there was not a 13th or 17th Luftkreis.

So, my question is: are these two codes examples of a hybrid style, perhaps? Could S17+B01 actually mean aircraft '1' of Flight 'B', within the seventh unit (in this case a Schule) of Luftkreis 1, HQ at Königsberg, with the code being prefixed with 'S' to indicate its training status? Similarly, therefore, S13+D23 could perhaps mean aircraft 23, Flight 'D' of the third unit within Luftkreis 1.

I admit I'm guessing, but it is an intruiging puzzle. Any thoughts...?

Regards...

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

We have a thread on Pre-war Luftkreiskommando five-character code system here - and reproduced below is my understanding of the training codes:

Online source
* Anhang I, Kennzeichen ab 1936/37 bis 1938/39 from http://www.luftarchiv.de

Published sources
* Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1935-45, volume 1 [K.Merrick, Kookaburra 1973]
* Luftwaffe Camouflage 1935-40 [A.Fleuret, Kookaburra, 1981]
* Luftwaffe Camouflage & Markings 1933-45, volume 2 [K.Merrick, Classic, 2005]

cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Hello, Peter...

Thanks for the information. I am acquainted with the www.luftarchiv.de site, although I have discovered new areas within the site that I never knew were there... !

Sadly, the reasoning for the unusual coding I am enquiring about seems not to be covered, and will have to remain a mystery for the time being. A lot of the other information was already know to me, but it is extremely well presented for others who are perhaps not as conversant. Definitely a website to be recommended, although curious minds should ideally have a better knowledge of the German language than myself, given that the bulk of the information is in German, with only the menus having an option of English.

I was, however, very interested to see an apparent link to www.stammkennzeichen.de, an archive of the four-character alphabetic codings, but sadly was unable to access this. Would you know if it is available, or is it work in hand...?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply... much appreciated... :)

Regards...

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Hi Obdl3945,

The (abowe) latter link is reserved for ´friends´ of that website (my applicaion for access sill goes unanswered, so I recon I am not in the elite group) but the LEMB Stkz. website contains much also.

My understanding of prewar-codes is limited but many (i.e. S17+M22) may have been latter time version of the old system. These codes were still used AFTER the usual Stkz. codes came into use. Examples are Ju 86 S17+N17 of LNS 4 crashed in 10.1940, Ju 86 S17+M20 and S17+M22 (ex-LNS Königgratz) but with KGrzbV 21 both gone missing (Pitomink) in December 1942.

Hope this helps.

Best regards
ed

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Hi again obdl3945...

The whole issue with these pre-war codes is still an area that has more questions than answers, hence my thread on the LEMB. So open and free discussion here and elsewhere on these and other code questions will hopefully provide an answer - one day anyway :)

As for the additional link you provided, I too am not deemed "reliable and trusty" [Bert's words, not mine) to have access to the resource, so cannot answer your question...

cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Ed...

Thanks for your postings. I have, in a sense, answered my own question, as I now know (prior to your posting) that you have to register to access the www.stammkennzeichen.de website. I had an horrendous time trying just to register, as it kept rejecting e-mail addresses (including a newly-created one), password, usernames and my home address details, which are written in a different order in this country to that on the continent; that alone was a minefield... :confused: I have sent a mail to the moderator requesting assistance, but following your comments, best not to hold my breath, eh... :rolleyes:

I took a look in at the LEMB site and that seems quite comprehensive, so when I have some spare time, I'll look into that further.

I note, however, that the two examples you've provided, are both 'S17' codings, and both originally from Luftnachrichten Schulen... do we see a pattern developing here... :D

Anyway, thanks again for your input.

Regards...

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Peter...

Sorry, mistimings with the postings... thanks for your additional input as well. Will look at the LEMB site in due course... definitely after lunch... I'm starving... !

Regards...

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Hi Obdl3945,

Sharp thinkin. Yes, there was also Ju 86 G-1 ´S13+C76´ of Kommandos der Schulen. but there were other types as well. Ju 53/3m W.Nr. 7274 ´S17+M55´, Ju 87 A-1 W.Nr. 0029? ´S13+S29´.So now you know the time frame: in apx. 1938 to 1942 (at least). I now think I have answered your query in full... the rest whould be careful research of pilots logbooks (Flugbuchs) but hundreds of them are floating around in the International aviation research community. Anyone out there willing to share theirs can contact me off board via this boards PM.

cheers
ed

ed

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

From photos and various book references I have collected a number of pre-war school unit codes. It appears that the first three digits are associated with the unit, although more than one combination can apply to a gived school, with the third digit being a variable. The last part consisting of numbers appears to be the individual aircraft identifier. Here’s what I think these unit codes amount to:

S1+A - FS (S) Posen.
S2+M - Erg (S) 1
S2+N – unit unknown.
S2+J – JFS Werneuchen.
S2+O – unit unknown.
S2+K – KFS Tutow.
S3+K – LKS Dresden
S4+K – Fl.WS (E) Krefeld.
S5+C – KFS Lechfeld.
S6+C – Fl.WS (See) Parow.
S6+D – Fl.WS (See Parow.
S6+X – unit unknown.
S7+K - KFS Fassberg.
S7+C – KFS Lechfeld.
S7+Y – FFS Halberstadt or FFS B Salzwedel.
S13+C – FFS C Wiener Neustadt.
S17+A - FAR 14.
S17+B – schule at Parndorf.
S17+M – LNS 2.

Its incomplete and somewhat confusing, but I think that it clarifies the situation a bit. I collect prewar codes and this is the pattern that emerges.

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

A Ju 86 sporting a double yellow fuselage ring was photographed at the end of the war (!) at an Austrian airfield sporting the following code: S17+M05 (the 'S17' being painted on in small size letters, according to the late-war standard).

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Doug...

Thanks for sharing your information. I appreciate that it's not a complete listing, but it certainly goes a long way to clarifying matter for me. I notice too, that up to and including the 'S7' code, they all seem - my sense of geography permitting - to fall within the pre-war Luftkreis areas, ie S1 (Posen) - Luftkreis 1 = HQ Königsberg, S3 (Dresden) - Luftkreis 3 = HQ Dresden etc. Only the 'S13' and 'S17' codings fall outwith this rule, seemingly.

Dénes...

Thanks, too, for your input. That must've been quite a survivor, that Ju86, if it was still sporting those markings in 1945... :). I believe the double yellow fuselage bands eventually became specific to Blindflugschulen aircraft.

A big thank you to all who posted to this thread. Best wishes...

Paul

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Not quite a pre-war training code, nevertheless interesting:

http://i22.ebayimg.com/06/i/001/10/4a/8b72_1.JPG
[Source: eBay]

The Do 17 in the background sports the Vkz. 80+B14, while the one in the foreground 80+B3K (the first two digits are assumed).

Any plausible explanation for this apparent discrepancy?

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Thanks for the obscure image!

The A/c with "B14" code is from 4.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 18. There is another example of this code (80+F14) on page 71 of Aufklärer und Aufklärungsverbände der deutschen Luftwaffe 1935-1945 by Wadman et al.
On the other hand, the one "B3K" code is a bit tougher since the "K" means that it is from the post strike recon flight of the staff flight of the third gruppe of a bomber unit. Therefore I expect that it does NOT have "80" as the first part of the code.

This is all part of the fun of prewar codes!

Doug

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Guys

Jet & Prop issue 2/2003 had an article about this.
I take it that neither you Paul or Doug has that article?

If you send me hagel.jarlevik@bredband.net your e-mails I will scan the article for you. Basically it seems to confirm what Doug is saying, but gives a lot more schools depending on the letter after the cross.

Cheers
Stig

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Stig...

Thank you... PM with address on its way to you... :)

Regards

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Here is a photo of a rare Dornier Do J 'Wal' (?) seaplane with a code not listed by Doug, S6+H02, and yellow (?) rear fuselage ring [source: eBay]:

http://www.holzleim95.de/pictures/Ebay/30.09.08/11,1

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

[citace=Denes Bernád;74453]Here je fotografie vzácný Dornier Do J ' Wal' (?) hydroplán s kódem neuvedeným od Douga, S6+H02, a žlutý (?) zadní trupový prsten [zdroj: eBay]:

http://www.holzleim95.de/pictures/Ebay/30.09.08/11,1[/citace]

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

I am sorry for mistaken first entrance.
In the photograph isn't code S6+H02, but S6+H82.
Detailed code list groups you can find in the magazine JET + PROP 2/2003

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Well, the seller also mentioned the unit code a such...

Re: Pre-war training unit codes
 

Another code not included in Doug's list (S5+B08):
[Source: eBay]http://kerstin59.homepage.t-online.de/ebay8/ik13.jpg?