Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hallo all,

Ed West has recently posted links in the Luftwaffe section ('Photos 9-30')to two more tantalizing photos of RAF Hurricanes and Battles from the French campaign. Both pose questions of identification and I hope by starting a new dedicated thread here that more information may come to light for the benefit of all.

The photos each show a Hurricane and a Battle, but different aircraft. They have been loaded by the Germans on railway flatcars for reclamation presumably. All wings and tail units have been removed for transport. The location is probably in, or originated from, the Reims area due to the units involved.

http://cgi.ebay.com/wseBayISAPI.dll...m=390000486618
This shows a Battle marked '.Q-V' , 'L54..'. This must be a 226 Squadron aircraft ( MQ ) and probably L5418 ? This was the only L54.. -serialled Battle abandoned at Reims on May 16th when 226 Squadron withdrew. The accompanying Hurricane is too small and unclear to be identified. As 73 Squadron left Reims on the same day and abandoned 5 Hurricanes it could be one of these ? Any comments welcome.

http://cgi.ebay.com/wseBayISAPI.dll...m=390000486785
Now for the fun one ! The other photo shows a Battle, GB-O, of 105 Squadron and a Hurricane with the individual letter C. While the O on the Battle is somewhat hidden in this shot a better image from another angle was also found by Ed West in August I think. This latter photo clearly shows it as GB-O, but no serial is visible or readable on either. Any ideas ?

It is the Hurricane also in this photo which may be the most exciting aspect of this find. The letter C behind the roundel is clear, but there is no trace of a squadron code, even making allowances for a missing panel. Very like 73 Squadron practice from photo evidence in many publications. The entire tail unit is missing. The serial, though somewhat blurred, appears to me to be P2975 or P2976. Can anyone enhance the serial ?

P2975 is not recorded in Peter Cornwell's book The Battle of France, Then and Now. The RAF Aircraft P1000-R9999 from Air-Britain records it as passing on to other units after 73 Squadron and being converted to a Mark IIA in 1941 before going to the Soviet Union in 1942. Don Minterne in Part 1 of The History of 73 Squadron gives its individual letter as Q and confirms it returned the UK on 18 June 1940. So clearly the Hurricane in the photo is not P2975.

Now to P2976. This is listed nowhere in the BOFT&N, The Battle of Britain Then & Now, Twelve Days in May or Don Minterne's work. The afore-mentioned Air-Britain volume shows P2976 only serving with 242 Squadron and crashing into the North Sea on 20 August 1940. Going back to The BOBT&N (4th/5th edition) for that date shows P2967 as crashing in the sea while attached to 242 Squadron !
But the same Air-Britain volume shows P2967 as having been shot down near Milstead, Kent on 27 September 1940 with 242 Squadron. So again returning to The BOBT&N we find on 27 September 1940 that 242 Squadron lost a Hurricane (serial unknown) at Milstead in Kent.

I am inclined to believe this Hurricane, P2976, belonged to 73 Squadron. It is worth noting in Don Minterne's extensive listing of 73 Squadron Hurricanes from 1938 to October 1940 that he does not seem to have a TP-C or C before July 1940. This raises the serious possibility in my mind that the C in this photo could be a 73 Squadron aircraft, along with the probability that it was found in the Reims area.

Furthermore I speculate that P2976 could be the 5th and missing serial from the 5 Hurricanes abandoned or destroyed at Reims by 73 Squadron on May 16th when they left this airfield along with 226 Squadron.

The nett result of the above - for me at least - is to confirm the fates of P2967 and P2976 as outlined in The BoBT&N and to correct those entries in the Air-Britain RAF Aircraft P1000-R9999. I realize this will not be news for the experts like Peter Cornwell. et al. But now perhaps we also have a candidate for the missing 73 Squadron Hurricane on page 293 of The BoFT&N ? (Pity we cannot identify the lost Hurricane of 242 Squadron on 27 September 1940 ?).

I hope this this post provokes some good discussion.

Martin Gleeson.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

I too hope that this thread provokes some useful discussion but regret that I've little to offer beyond what is already published & as noted by Martin. However, according to my notes, four aircraft in the L5400 range were assigned to No.226 Squadron in France these being: L5418, L5438, L5450, & L5461. Also, could that Hurricane serial be P2973 ?

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hello Martin and Peter,

I am not at home at the moment and can' t check my files, but one thing for sure is that the Hurricanes indeed abandonned on Reims airfield on the 16th of may 1940 were burnt ( and this was well done ) by british personel.

I don' t think that the Battle and Hurricane seen on these photographs were loaded on board the train by the German but were captured in this situation.

Best regards.

Bernard.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hello Martin,

Battle MQ-V seen loaded on french railway wagon is L5461. I have a clear side on shot of this aircraft as confirmation. The two RAF servicing and repair units used the railway system to move damaged aircraft to the depot at Nantes. This train was obviously overrun.

Regards,
Simon

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

I am afraid not very much on the subject, but I have some problem with a Hurricane of 501 Sqn still flying after its loss in the Channel. I think some grain of salt is needed, when researching such subjects, especially if records were lost.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hallo all,

Thanks for the responses so far. It is always good to obtain other viewpoints and this post certainly proves that. I admit it never occurred to me that the train had been captured already loaded. That casts a different light on those photos.

Combining the entries in The BoFT&N and The Battle File along with the photo of MQ-V L5461 seems to tie up neatly the fate of this aircraft.

Re. P2973 ? Peter I can still only see a 5 or a 6 as the last digit, but may yet be proved wrong ! One would really need a clearer image.

Regards for now,

Martin.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Agree the train was en route to Nantes.
MQ- V is L5461 recorded as to 6RSU on 6 June
The Hurri beside MQ-V on the train is P3403 - to RAF Tangmere on 3 June 40 then next recorded as 'presumed struck off charge'
Pretty sure that GB-O is the photograph at page 65 of Battle File, wrongly attributed, my candidates are P2176, K9186 or P2248
Appreciate any positive ID on GB-O or other suggestions for Srl no. of GB-O

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Playing with contrast and shadows with the Huricane I only see P2976

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

How about P2967 on 20.8.40 in North Sea, and P2769 (SOC 30.9.40 'with 79 Sqn') for loss 27.9.40 - both with 242 Sqn

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

No bites on this....

P2976 lost in France while with 73 Sqn

How about P2967 on 20.8.40 in North Sea (lost off Winterton while on Patrol Mid P J Patterson FAA killed (missing) with 242 Sqn), and P2769 (SOC 30.9.40 'with 79 Sqn') for the loss 27.9.40 "F/O M G Homer DFC killed, shot down by Bf109's over Sittinbourne Kent"

What could also be confusing is that P2796 was with 73 Sqn! this was lost 11th September Sgt HG Webster safe. Aircraft crashed over Sheppey and exacavated in 1976

Paul

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hallo Paul,

P2976. I agree with your conclusion for this Hurricane fate.

P2967. Also agree with that, see my original post.

P2769. I think you have got it ! This looks right to me too as the 242 Squadron Hurricane lost on 27 September 1940.
I have seen no evidence that this machine ever flew with 79 Squadron. The reference to 79 Squadron must be incorrect, perhaps a simple administrative error at the height of the Battle of Britain ? This serial number is not mentioned in 12 Days in May, relatively few 242 Squadron aircraft were. It seems a good bet now that it survived the French campaign and continued in service with 242 Squadron until September 27th. I don't know how well-kept the 242 Squadron ORB was in 1940. However there are many experts on the Battle of Britain who may have other ideas ?

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hands up ! I got it wrong.

A clearer image has most certainly appeared in Ed West's latest offering of E-Bay photo links. See 'Photos + 10-19' on the sister Luftwaffe forum and the follow-up comments by Mark Sheppard.

It is P2676 , not P2976 as I thought. What a fabulous photo too. Now we have a new riddle to sort out !

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Now if only they had taken a clearer photo of GB-O on the next railway track as well! - Prehaps we could have ID's that as well!

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Martin

Unfortunately my Mac is off to be looked at and I am not in work until next week.

When I spent 5 years researching Hurricane P3351 in New Zealand I managed to ID a number of Hurricanes just to establish that P3351 was coded K.

In your email.

I am inclined to believe this Hurricane, P2976, belonged to 73 Squadron. It is worth noting in Don Minterne's extensive listing of 73 Squadron Hurricanes from 1938 to October 1940 that he does not seem to have a TP-C or C before July 1940. This raises the serious possibility in my mind that the C in this photo could be a 73 Squadron aircraft, along with the probability that it was found in the Reims area. July 1940. This raises the serious possibility in my mind that the C in this photo could be a 73 Squadron aircraft, along with the probability that it was found in the I am inclined to believe this Hurricane, P2976, belonged to 73 Squadron. It is worth noting in Don Minterne's extensive listing of 73 Squadron Hurricanes from 1938 to October 1940 that he does not seem to have a TP-C or C before Reims area.

Hurricane P3034 flew in June/July 1940 with 73 Sqn and was coded C. It was damaged at the end of July at Prestwick. P2953 was coded L. I have 18 Hurricanes and serials with 73 Sqn and that flew back to Tangmere on the 18th June. I willlook next week. Also P2975 did also belong to 73 Sqn.

regards

Mark

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

In another German Forum I saw the photo from an Hurricane coded GZ.X
from the Serial No. only ...533 is seen as an Luftwaffen officer standing at front. The plane looks very intact!!! Any infos about it? Thanks.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Well at least there is no longer any doubt as to the correct serial of that intriguing Hurricane. As for my source for recording P2676 as that abandoned by P/O Gower of No.229 Squadron on May 18, 1940, I can only refer readers to my introductory comments on p7 of The Battle of France Then & Now.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

N2533 of 32 Sqn lost over Dieppe on June 11th 1940 = Sgt Jones believed captured. Coded GZ.X - Can anyone identity Sgt Jones full name and fate?

BTW Have you a link to the photo?

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hope this work.

http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/sh...d.php?t=152715

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Thanks - But unfortuately you have to be a member to view it!

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

I have just found this old thread. I have two photos of 105sdn Battle GB-O on the train with Hurricane P2676 C. I cannot read the Battle Serial no but it starts with K and looks like 6 or 8 at the end.

Dave

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Here's a photo which you can see a bit of the serial number.

Dave

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Looks like it ends in an 8 to me

K???8

rather than

K???6

Any one come up with a 105 Sqn possible ?

K9338, or K9188 ?

I favour K9338 as Returned to base so badly damaged that it was beyond the unit's ability to repair.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hallo Dave and Paul,

Dave, that is the best photo yet of this Battle. I have to say what originally looked like 'GB-O' now appears to be 'GB-Q' (Q for Queen). Also I would just favour K9338 over K9188 based on this photo.

Does anyone know how many or the identity of the Battles abandoned at Villeneuve on May 16th by 105 Sqn. ? (Possibly K9188, P2176 and P2248 ? One of those abandoned seems to be 'GB-A').

Regards,

Martin.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

105sdn Battle GB-A, i cant make out any seial number.

Dave

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

GB.A was P2176, as provided by a previous posting - possibly not on this board. I have another jpg of the other side of the aircraft in this state. Thanks to Michal Hravda who say it on E-bay.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Just a thought - for any given batch of Hurricanes say for example in the P2535 to P3984 range that you are interested in - are there any records of when aircraft were completed by the factory - without looking at the individual RAF record card for the serial?

It would help a lot if you could say for certain when approximately aircraft were ready instead of working with a wide range such as Nov 1939 - to July 1940 for the above. Did the Hurricance get produced at a steady rate. If this was at a rate of 100 plus per month for this batch you can assume P29 may have been ready towards March 1940 and perhaps not sent to France as 1) RAF Losses in March 1940 were small and 2) by the time the s*** hit the fan in May 1940 it was too late to send many replacements.

Also regarding Hurricances with serials P29... etc I do not see many used in France so I do believe that 79 Sqn had Hurricances built well before March - May - no doubt with a much lower number serial - say P2576. And don't forget it's easy to make a 5 into 9 in photos.

Just a theory! Don't be too hard on me!

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hi all,
slightly off topic i know but i am trying to find pictures of no1 squadron in france during this time. my father J.A.Porter served there until being recalled to tangmere from chateaudun with jackie mann and co. the only pic I have is of my father having a wash outside a tent at the time somewhere on an airfield
BTW the hurricane KW-W in masons book of the hurricane on page 62 was my fathers plane and he collected shrapnel in his leg and knee from this encounter

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Here some more private Fotos - for new Questions..

Greetings Peglar

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

The last two are Spitfires from a later date, as shown by the roundels which are of a later period.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hello Peglar.

It is just a curiosity.

It is possible to know what is it written on the cowling of the last Spitfire?

By advance thank you.

Ps: the Battle of 142 sqn. is very nice.

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hello Many,

IIRC 'Stella Maria', sorry I can't remember - for the moment - her Belgian pilot (350 (Belgian) Sqn)!

Best regards

ClinA-78

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Oops,

Sorry : Spitfire Vb 'Stella Maris' AA835 'MN-B' flew by P/O Roger De Wever (° Bordeaux 20 May 1917 / + Lowestoft 01 May 1990), POW on the 29 June 1942 near Oye-Plage. Claimed by Fw. Ernst Christof (1./JG 26).

Happy it cames through the black hole...

ClinA-78

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

But need some glasses... 'MN-E'

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

Hello clinA-78

Thank you for this precise informations

Re: Hurricane & Battle photos, France 1940.
 

The 412 Sqn Spitfire with code VZ, has individual letter G according to another picture what exists.

Michal