Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hello,

While preparing artwork for color profile packages I've encountered a very strange device on the side of three different He111s that force landed in 1940 during the French Campaign and the Battle of Britain. Two of these are from aircraft of known units: 3./KG1 and Stab I./KG55. Originally, I thought that it was some kind of mission scoreboard with 24 mission symbols. But it is now obvious that it is something else. Peter Cornwell suggests a cheese grater, but this seems an inconvenient location to store something to make your sandwiches with while you are flying a combat mission. I"ve shown two different examples here. Can't get the 3rd one to load. All three show the same pattern, but different color schemes.

So what the hell is this? Does anyone know of other examples in 1940 era photos. Does anyone have a clue on the color schemes of these devices? Did they also appear on the port side of the fuselages of some aircraft?

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview...=11&u=11993385
http://www.servimg.com/image_preview...=10&u=11993385

Thanks,

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Larry

I have a shot of the KG 55 He 111 at Wick, Sussex, on 26.8.40 which shows exactly the same thing. I had long puzzled over what it was. It almost looks like some improvised cockpit ventilator, although I like Peter's cheese grater idea better! I will dig out the photo and post it here later. I think it is on the port side.

POSTSCRIPT! Ooooops!! Just viewed your second image, Larry, and realise it is the one I mentioned aboved. Doh!
Andy

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

These are wooden push out blocks that contains the storage for signal flares

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Fascinating. How exactly does this work? I am aware of apertures for the firing of signal pistols from aircraft but am just puzzled, from a technical viewpoint, as to how this operates. Is it a firing mechanism for flares? Or just stowage? If the latter, I am still puzzled! Presumably the flares are loaded from outside, plugged with wooden plugs and accessed from inside the cockpit? I am just puzzled!!

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

These are just for storage. They were loaded before each flight from within. In chase of a problem with, or fire, in one of the flares, you got rid of the problem by just pushing out the whole wooden assembly.
regards janus

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hello,

Here is another example of this device on probably a force-landed He111 during the French Campaign of 1940:

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview...=12&u=11993385

I must be dense, since I'm still not clear exactly what I'm looking at here. Are the 24 dark circles or triangles holes? Is a section of the fuselage skin in the shape of this device cut out and this "flare container" somehow faired in place through the opening? Some of these look like they may have been put in place with something like duct tape, or is this just bare, unpainted sheet metal? What color would these be? If you look at all three posted here, they have the exact same configuration of six rows of four holes (?) with each row offset from the one above it. However, each one appears to be colored differently around the outer boarder, at least the outside edge of each fairing. Does this mean that there are 24 signal flares in each container? Obviously this is some kind of field modification, as the one with the 3./KG1 insignia was put in place after the insignia was applied. Would this have been used only on command a/c, like Gruppenstab a/c or Sta Kap a/c, or would it have been commonly used on other aircraft in a Staffel? Were some of these installed on the port side, or just on the starboard side as seen in these three examples? Needs a lot more explanation here. Anybody know of a schematic drawing somewhere of this thing? Was it just a temporary solution to a problem that resulted in a later design change on production a/c (such as a chute for dispensing flares through the fuselage skin from the cockpit)? I don't recall seeing these coming into common use on He111s and/or other a/c. Are there any examples of this in use prior to the 1940 Blitzkrieg? Can anyone provide further photography of this "cheese grater in use on a He111 or any other type of German aircraft?"

And finally, does anyone have any further photography of or identification on the aircraft shown in this latest posted photo?

Regards,

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Wouldn't flares be pointing upwards?
These don’t according to the shown photos.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

No reason why they should. I don't think that they do in the Very pistol aperture on RAF fighters.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

I do not know for a fact what exactly these are but I have a theory which is rather likely. These form an acoustic aperture that allows a public address speaker inside the aircraft to transmit sound to outside the plane. One can imagine a crewman yelling "clear chocks" or "stand clear" using this feature. The skin penetrations allow passage of the sound through the weather seal which is nothing more than a layer of doped cloth. Thanks to a clear closeup, I saw at some point I could see that the cloth has some texture and "pinked" edges (ie: zi-zagged) as done with pinking shears (just like my mother used to use!). Anyway we used something like this same arrangement to protect external speakers on our Bilevel passenger rail cars made at our local factory for Toronto.

I think that this is the most likely explanation.

DGS

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hello,

So we have a new theory here from Doug. Thanks Doug. Anybody else got any info on this?

Regards,

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

I think I may have found a clue. Go here,


http://books.google.com/books?id=XIE...esult#PPT49,M1


and start with the last paragraph on page 56, and on to the next page.



Ed

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

I forgot to mention .......

One is that the He 111 had a flare launching tube into which the flare gun would interlock. This tube exits the plane below the observer's position in the area which is usually sky blue color, not far from the bombsight. The handle of the flare gun is visible in many pics just to the right of the bombardier's "bed", just forward of the map case and repeater compass. The Heinkel is a most interesting aircraft with many design novelties.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hi,
Believe it or not this is the third time that i have tried to post this!

The unit is ablock perforated with circular holes, angled downwards , which held flare cartridges and was usually covered with lightweight doped fabric. On the iside it appeared as a metal case and lid, marked 'Leuchtpatronen'. Somewhere nearby would be a 'leuchtpistole', and a tube through which this would fire. I know that on one H-16 this tube was just in front of the bomb aimer position but I am sure that I've seen them alongside this position as well, to the right. I may be wrong but I'm sure that the cartridges wouldn't, or couldn't, be deliberately fired through the block.

On the H-16 there were three small 'leuchtpatronenkasten' at floor level under the secondary instrument panel. On the H-20 there was one slightly larger unit under the Tochterkompasse just in front of the navigators seat. On the H-20 the 'leuchtpistole' was positioned just in front of the case, possibly in the 'firing tube'.

I'm positive that there were variations, even with the same model type!

Regards,

David

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hello,

So, do I get this right that this device is only a storage container for flares, and that this container was mounted through a hole cut through the fuselage skin? What would be the purpose, if the flares were to be fired by a gun through another tube, for cutting a hole through the side of the fuselage skin? Couldn't the cartridge container just be mounted somewhere in the cockpit, and the cartridges could be pulled out for firing by the gun when they were needed? Why mount this all the way through the skin of the aircraft? Or am I fundamentally misunderstanding what you're saying here?

Regards,

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Flares were occasionally used to signal WHERE to drop bombs during poor visibility. I know the RAF used flares which once launched they would drop an illuminate the target area. Cannot remmebrif the germans did the same.

Not need to have them pointed up, as asked earlier...the Me109 had the flare port also pointed down.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hi Larry,

It was for storage, presumably with safety in mind they were positioned to fire outwards and away from the aircraft if accidentally detonated. Looking at photos there are no cables or firing mechanisms going to the cases and the depth of the boxes is about the same as a cartridge case.

The openings for the flare blocks were made on the production line but I think that there was an option to fit either the block or a closing panel, certainly on earlier aircraft as in your photos.

From memory the pistol itself was just a push fit into the firing tube.

Regards,

David

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

That clears up my worry, that it would be very hazardous to fire flares from the sidewall of an He 111 cockpit in flight. The odds of hitting the wing or other part of the airframe would be quite high, I'd think. And you wouldn't want a burning flare anywhere near the engines or the intakes.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

A quick look through Aerodata Intenational No 12 - Heinkel 111 P & H reference booklet shows on P.224 a patch of the same side and same place on the starboard side in aircraft on the production line of He 111P.

Also the drawing on P229 shows that the Signal Flare Pouch was stowed just above where these holes appear on the aircraft.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Since most flare storage was normally armoured, this might have been another take on the problem. Since there was little or no armour on fighters and bombers in 1939 through much of 1940, placing the flares in an external storage area would enable them to be easily jettisoned in case the aircraft was intercepted.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Well, the mystery expands!

It eventually dawned on me that a certain Japanese/English pictorial might have illustrations of this area and Aero Detail No. 18 Heinkel He 111 has several pics of interest. ISBN 4-499-22670-8.

It appears to support the flare holder theory.


Page 31 shows an external view of the cheese grater without the cloth cover. Pics 31 and 32.
Page 19 shows the interior of this assembly. Pics 92 and 98 are quite revealing

There appears to be no other illustrations of this in this book.



So it appears that this is a flare holder located just below the repeater compass.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Doug,

I do not appear to have that publication in my library; any chance you could scan and post those photos

Thanx,

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hi Larry

Here are the pictures in the Japanese publication Aero 18. They are of the H-20 preserved at RAFM at Hendon. The flare chute seems to be in a different position to the photo shown earlier.

Second picture: Incidentally the He 111 at Gaerdemoen, illustrated in the same publication, is missing the wooden flare chute, presumably rotted away, as the rectangular opening is preserved. You can see the earlier position compared with Hendon's.

Regards

Chris

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Here are a couple of other shots, first from a past eBay auction showing a closer image of the chutes and the second from this site http://www.beeldbankwo2.nl/index.jsp showing He 111 being manufactured.

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hello,

With these latest photos it appears that this flare container was factory equipment on at least the He111H, although it doesn't appear to be present on many of the aircraft seen FL during the Blitzkrieg in the west and the Battle of Britain period. I don't recall seeing these on profile artwork for the He111 in the past either. Looks like this has been largely an overlooked feature on the aircraft. Thanks to all of you for your support and help with this one. I especially want to thank "ChrisS" for posting the pictures. I assure you that our many profiles of He111s for 1940 will be correct.
Regards,

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Many thanks Larry.

Here are two other photos.

In the first the flare chute, on this KG 26 machine, seem to have some kind of light covering. I suspect this was to stop airflow entering the chute holes, in a similar fashion to the Battle of Britain Spifires and Hurricanes had their gunports 'papered over' with a red light canvas.
Source: Scale Aircraft Modeller International June 2002 Page 529

The second photo shows the interior of an He 111 showing the signal flare gun pouch which perfectly matches the beautifully executed A. Grainger drawing in Aerodata International No 12 Heinkel He 111 page 229
Source: Squadron Signal He 111 in Action, Uwe Feist, 1973.

Regards

Chris

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hi Chris,

The container in the second photo is actually associated with the MG15 in the nose. I can't scan at the moment but if you can find a Heinkel published sectional illustration of the A-Stand you will see a 'Bordtasche MG15' clearly illustrated.

Interestingly, when i carried out my own study of the H-20 at Hendon in the early 90s the flare cartridge container still had it's lid on, it seems to have been removed by the time Aerodetail got their photos. Sometime I'll maybe get round to publishing my photos of the internals of this H-20, and an H-16.

Also bear in mind that many drawings of the He111 cockpit are based on published photos and drawn by people who did not necessarily know what they were looking at. eg. Look at page 85 of the Aerodetail book (1997) H-1 cockpit layout illustration, and the long item above the wheel marked '27' then look at page 129 of Wings of the Luftwaffe (1993 paperback) item marked '112'. In the latter we are told that it is a 'seat raising pivot member and control conduit'. In fact it is a misinterpretation of a photo (probably of an early RAF captured example) and actually shows the pilot seat arm rest pivoted backwards. Item 80 in this picture is shown as flare storage but I'm pretty sure that if the photo used was the one that I'm thinking of it is again the MG15 associated item.

The Aerodata publication of 1979 isn't bad for the period but again the large cockpit illustration on page 229 should be seen as a representation and not necessarily technically accurate.

The Griehl book is by far one of the best books available on the He111 but should still be read in conjunction with others for the completer picture. Often Heinkel produced literature cannot be fully trusted, just as with other manufacturers. The pressures of wartime often meant delays in technical information reaching publication and sometimes never getting that far due to ongoing production line changes and operational requirements.

Incidentally, the fabric cover over the flare storage area would have 'pinked' zig-zag edges and was initially painted in the relevant camouflage colour for that area of the aircraft. This could make it 'invisble' to an external observer. As with wing mounted weaponry this cover would prevent dirt getting in and making it difficult to withdraw cartridges, the metal cover on the inside preventing airflow into the cockpit when cartridges were removed.

Regards,

David

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

I can add the following photo from the Kagero book. There is no type designation given for this photo, however it appears in the chapter for the He 111 P.

Best wishes,
Robert

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Thank you very much David for putting things straight!! The Grainger illustration matches the photograph and therefore, as you say, must be the box connected with the forward MG. The photograph however is not of the Hendon example but is a wartime original. It would be superb to see your photos of the Hendon example published. Am I correct in saying that the aircraft is essentially unrestored and in an original internal condition? Other than the Bf 109 G-2, I believe it's true that all the Hendon Luftwaffe aircraft are in this condition??

Thanks also for the information on the chute cover. Subsequently I've found two other shots with this cover in place, your explanation has made sense of these photos.

Cheers!
Chris

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Hi Chris,

You are correct in that the aircraft is essentially unrestored although a group was trying to do some work to it before it was moved into the BofB display. For privacy reasons I won't mention his name but one of the group does use this board and may wish to make further comment, particularly regarding some of the earlier well intentioned but misguided/amateur attempts at 'restoration' mainly in the cockpit area.

Certainly in the late eighties I spoke with one of the museum officials who told me that with limited financial resources and because it is the 'RAF Museum' priority was given to RAF/Allied types. Whether this was true then or now I couldn't say, although I would hazard a guess!

BTW, the Robert Michulec He111 Aircraft monograph (1994?) shows the Heinkel factory produced sectional cockpit views on page 53 and the rear cover shows yet another interpretation of the cockpit area, with item 49 supposedly being a signals flare pouch - again!

I must get those photos sorted!

Regards

David

Re: Seeking ID of strange "cheese grater" device on below cockpit window of some 1940 He111s
 

Oh, and by the way, whilst there is much in the way of originality internally it would not be true to say that it is in its original condition, unfortunately!

David