Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Everyone know's Gabby's T-Bolt was s/n 42-26418 HV+A and he was lost in it on 7-20-1944. My question is did any other pilot have the same camo on his P-47D or was this a one off scheme? Was Gabby really downed in this a/c or is the serial number off? Look at this pictiure. The date is unknown but clearly post D-Day. Capt Jim Carter and Lt Earl Hertel are preparing for a dust DB mission. This seems to be Gabby's 47 and his armorer Joe DiFranza is IDed in the center of the 3 ground crewmen on the left. Note also a large block is painted over under the cockpit. It looks to be were 28 kill flags were! Does anyone know anything about his a/c. Over to the experts!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ghtmission.jpg

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Intriguing question. The distinctive swirls of the camo gray on the fuselage immediately behind the cowling matches that visible on Gabreski's P-47 - I've never seen photos of other 56 FG T-bolts with this same scheme, though other planes (Schilling's for one) had camo with broad areas of gray and od. One thing I noticed is that in close-up color and b/w photos of Gabreski sitting in the cockpit (the scoreboard is visible), the canopy framing is noticeably natural metal, whereas it appears to be painted in the photo you posted - if Gabreski was shot down in another P-47, mayabe the frame was painted when the scoreboard was painted over ??

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Clearly the same a/c with the upper invasion stripes painted over, painted canopy frame and painted over kills. More questions.....................
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...eski56thFG.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...byandcreww.jpg

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Hi all.
First post on the forums.
Here are a couple of photos of the downed HV-A.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ellylanded.jpg

Whats interesting about these photos is that in Gabbys book he states that T'bolts from Don Smiths flight strafed HV-A and set it on fire.(Although Gabby was in the woods at this time running from the scene) Praeger Neyland also says in his book "One Small Cog" that Don Smiths flight set HV-A alight.
One explanation could be that when Gabbys plane was first seen to go in it was described as a cloud of dust travelling along the field. Smoke and dust are easily confused.
As for P-47s of the 56th with similar markings, Albert Knafelz's "Button Nose" of the 62nd FS definately carried the softer edge camo.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...se/lm-abar.jpg

As regards the evening photo. The scheme is very similar and is very likely Gabbys P-47. The canopy frames seem dark, but the gunsight glass also appears solid in this photo. A silhouette.
Not exactly a firm starting point to discuss canopy frame colours I believe.
The two photos of Gabbys plane in the second post...
In the second one the upper wing invasion stripes have been removed and the paint chipping is evident. No paint chipping in the top photo where the invasion stripes are intact.
This chipping is very similar to the chipping visible in the "evening" photo.

Nige

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

In Capt Donovan Smith's Eyewitness Report attached to the MACR they destroyed the jug - according to German Report it was 20% damaged.

As to mystery of upper D-Day stripes, 8th AF issued directive on July 9 to remove all upper stripes. Took awhile for order to be 100% completed

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

[quote=lampie;74791]Hi all.
First post on the forums.
Here are a couple of photos of the downed HV-A.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g2...ellylanded.jpg

Hi Nigel,

where did you find these photos of Gabreski downed plane?

Regards
Flavio

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Well, no doubt Gabby was shot down in his HV-A, as Lampie's photos confirm. The camo pattern on the plane in the evening photo matches the pattern of Gabby's 47, so that's his - the canopy framing is mostly likely just silhouetted against the lighter sky, giving it a dark tone. What appears to be an overpainting of the victory scoreboard is probably the background sky reflected off the scoreboard - perhaps the flag paint had a somewhat glossier finish than the camo so at the view angle, the reflection masks the flags, giving it the appearance of a solid color.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Jack,

I suspect the two A/C are the same. See page 129 of Zemke's Wolfpack by Hess as it shows a rear 3/4 port view of 'A' in full D-Day garb. My assumption is the photo in question, which is obviously a staged one, (did Gabby ever drop a bomb?) was taken during the transition of toning down the D-Day invasion stripes and Gabby's score was possibly covered over for the PR shot. Remember, those "flags" were stickers as period footage shows a member of Gabby's ground crew sticking one on as the plane comes to a halt. Either way, it's an interesting photo/query but I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary here; especially the framing of the canopy appearing to be painted. Look at the prop boss... it's somewhat dark even though the flash or light has caught it whereas the canopy is in the dark.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Either way, it's an interesting photo/query but I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary here.

Exactly. No conspiracy theories in this case.

The victory markings on Gabbys plane were indeed stickers/decals which the man himself confirms in his book. These would have certainly reacted to the light in a different way to the paint on the aircraft itself.
As for Gabby ever dropping a bomb?
I have never seen a photo of Gabbys T'bolt with the underwing shackles fitted, so given that the only attachment point for a drop tank remaining is the centre fusalage shackles I think its very unlikely that he ever dropped ordnance.
Nige

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Jack.
Interesting that you post this second reply which includes a photo of Gabreski with the invasion stripes of his aircraft already painted out, and indeed partly answers your own question.

There are plenty of photos showing Gabbys T'bolt with the upper invasion stripes removed.

As regards the staged "evening photo". Theres nothing "covered over" in the scoreboard area.
Look closely and its possible to see the straight top edge of the scoreboard area, and the area where the ground crews names are recorded also stands out clearly in this light.


To sum up.
Upper surface invasion stripes were removed from Gabreskis final T'bolt.(documented in photos)
The canopy framing was not painted over in a darker colour.(In the evening photo its a silhouette)
Gabby was flying HV-A when he belly landed and was taken POW.(documented in photos)
The scoreboard has not been covered over for the staged PR photo.( its visible albeit very faintly)

Clearly the same a/c with the upper invasion stripes painted over, painted canopy frame and painted over kills. More questions.....................
It is the same aircraft yes,and the invasion stripes have been painted over, but thats as far as it goes.

Just my 2 cents worth

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Hi Nige,

....glad you found us & welcome to TOCH. Thanks for the comprehensive analysis !

cheers

Neil

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

I pretty sure I have seen a photo of him by the cockpit with more than the 28 kill markings ,3 ? more under the 28 but the photo's of the belly landing shows only the 28.
I need to search around.
Rick

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Gabby is often credited with 31 kills in WW2. I believe, but Im not 100% on this, that the other 3 were ground "kills".
The 31 total is not to be confused with his total score (including Korea) of 34.5.

The most common photos of Gabbys HV-A around July 44 show the scoreboard at either 27 or 28 kills.
As is confirmed by the photos of his T'bolt bellylanded, the final score displayed was 28.
There are also the staged publicity photos taken after Gabby passed Bob Johnsons score of 27.
http://gallery.kitmaker.net/data/20616/gabreskipeg.JPG


If anyone can clarify the details behind the "31" total I would be interested to know them.
I have quite an extensive library of 56th references but Im away from home for a few more weeks and wont be able to research this myself just yet.

Nige

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Nige - every Fighter Group in 8th AF flew many Fighter Bomber Sweeps in France during entire first month of Normandy campaign, including 56th.

Not coincidentally these were times when the 4th (twice in Mustangs), the 78th and 353rd had big fights air to air on the deck in the 47 and suffered higher than normal losses.

Regards,

Bill

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

2/22/44 Do 217 dest Eindhoven
3/8/44 Fw 190 (1 dest-4damaged) at Weinstorf
4/9/44 1/2 UI/te shared w/Matthew
7/7/44 He 111 Dest Bassenheim

3.5-4 Ground, 28 air

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Thanks for that :)
Naturally I was aware the 56th flew fighter bomber sweeps.
I only said that Id never seen a photo of Gabbys last T'bolt with underwing shackles fitted.
They were quite easily removable I gather, and there are photos of other 56th FG planes with them attached,not attached, attached again etc.
Nige

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

So....where's Jack's two-cents on this matter?

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Well...........this has been a cool discussion which is why I like to post pictures! There's always more than meets the eye!! Dave O'Hare, of the 354th FG, liked to say that a picture is worth a 1000 words and that's very true in this case. I zoomed in one the cockpit are and yes the frame is NMF but there's no kill flags. No only possible reason is they're censored out. Tonight I'll post a close up.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Found the photo.It is in the book "Beware the Thunderbolt" which is a Schiffer book on the 56 th FG page 110.
Don't have a scanner or camera that works to post photo so maybe some else may have that book.
Jack you are correct in that this is a interesting thread.
Rick

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

I have the book but Im away from home for another two weeks so dont have access.
I'll have to wait and see what appears in the latest installment of "Gabreskigate"
Very interested to see the latest "evidence"
Nige

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Gabreskitgate? Didn't know there was one? Indeed photos are worth a 1000 words, but only if you know what's going on in "that" photo. Otherwise, to the rubbish bin they go...

Either way, things have been rather slow of late, so this has been a good topic.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Indeed it is

http://www.btinternet.com/~petewenma...P-47/gabby.jpg

Pete

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...rter56thFG.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...iandcrew-1.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/j...reskithumb.jpg

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Dear all,

I suspect this photo with 31 kill markings is a photo-retouch. Note the last three kill flags: they have the same shape and shadow of those in the row upper. I think Gabreski never had a 31 kill board on his T-Bolt.

Flavio

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Thanks Pete for posting.
Top row are all with FW-190's on top with the extra 3 on the bottom the last one says ME-109.Which makes sence in that his last four victories were ME-109's.
We might never know.
Rick

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

What I find interesting is when did the stenciling of the identity of the kills show up? Clearly these were not part of the stickers...

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

I must agree that the "31" kill flags is a retouch.
Look carefully and you will see how the curve of the fusalage doesnt continue over the last row of 3 kill markings, in fact, the fusalage appears to start to curve the other way.
Jack.3 nice photos of Gabbys T'bolt.
Thats all,,no painted over scoreboard etc etc etc.
Obviously a reflection.

Jack, you post photos claiming that the staged night photo "obviously" shows a different P-47,stating that the invasion stripes having been painted out on the upper surfaces and in the same post show of photo which clearly shows Gabreski in his P-47 with the stripes removed.
A fine job of disproving your own "theory"


Gabreski bellylanded HV-A and the aircraft had 28 kill markings on this date.
Obviously photographs of HV-A bellylanded with German officers standing on the wing are not enough proof for you?

The photo showing Gabby with 31 kill markings is obviously doctored.

Do you honestly think that while flying 2 or 3 missions a day during the heaviest period of operations,(remember the small matter of the Normandy Landings around this time? ), that ground crews had the time or inclination to cover up a victory scoreboard for a staged photograph etc etc.
It amazing how easy it is to see something you want to see in a photograph rather than what is actually there when you look carefully.

Lets inject a small amount of sanity into these proceedings and leave the conspiracy theories to the UFO fans shall we?

I wonder what Mr Gabreski would make of all of this?

Nige

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Good eye to both Flavio and Lampie about the doctored photo. That's something I totally missed...

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Geez you guys are a rough crowd. From intriguing question to conspiracy theories. I just thought it was a cool photo which raised a few questions and I thought ya'll might enjoy seeing it.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Jack, it's all in good fun. :)

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

There are more mysteries - as of July 7 (his last ground score - an He 111), Gabreski had 28 and 3.5 ground - and a lot of fighter pilots put up a 'full' flag for a partial score. If he had had enough time (and cared) for 8th AF VCB to confirm all his claims - the last 2 109's plus the He 111 would still be a 'claim- pending review status' and could have resulted in 31 flags by late July/early August (when he was POW).

In all my father's awards there was usually at least 30 days from Group intel sending stuff up to 8th AF VCB and getting the word back.

His last three scores were
Me 109 June 27 - air
Me 109 July 5 - air
He 111 July 7 - ground

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

I am wondering if flags on the night shot are not blended because of filter use. Another possibility is that they were retouched, but there is no doubt traces of them are visible.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Nope. Can't see that happening. Maybe covered up while they painted over the D-Day Invasion stripes but the filter, if used, wouldn't do that.

Just wondering, Franek, but have you ever shot B&W film with different filters?

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

True, but if you study the last three flags there are salient points that match with the three above hence the obvious.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

All I see is light reflecting off the area where the kill marking stickers are.
There are documented photos of Gabreskis Thunderbolt from around July 6th 1944 showing 28 kill markings in place and the upper surface invasion stripes removed.
The area where the ground crew members names were recorded also shows up as a shiny rectangular reflection on many photos.

Also,,yet again,,the photos of HV-A on the ground after belly landing show clearly 28 kill markings.

Im getting bored now.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

Yes, I did, though years ago. Note, that the red nose is rather pale and blending with the surround, I presume red or orange filter may have been used to darken the sky and to get better night effect. This, combined with rather smooth nature of Shacki's transfers, may have resulted with the effect. Rectangular greyish (or rather grayish) patches are clearly visible in photo software.

Re: Gabreski T-Bolt Questions
 

In the night photograph, the lighting is augmented by at least 2 extra light sources.
One almost directly in front of the aircraft illuminating the ground crew members and the other illuminating the two pilots.
You can clearly see in the photo the pools of light on the ground eminating from the light sources.

As regards the bottom section of the cowling appearing paler. Is anyone familiar with the old trick of viewing a potential second hand car purchase under sodium street lighting?
Any panels painted that have been touched up or repainted are imediately obvious under street lighting conditions.
Also,the areas in the photograph with more direct light will appear brighter and the unlit areas darker in comparrison.

My name on the site ,Lampie, comes from my profession as a lighting designer/technician of over 25 years standing just incase anyone was wondering.

Lets look back to the original point raised.

Quote...Was Gabby really downed in this a/c or is the serial number off?

Answer..yes he was,,and no it isnt. ( backed up by photographs)

Quote...
Clearly the same a/c with the upper invasion stripes painted over, painted canopy frame,and painted over kills..
Answers
HV-A did have its upper surface invasion stripes painted over as Mr Cook himself shows in the second photo of post # 3
The canopy frame is not painted over in the night photo, as again, Mr Cook shows in a later post.
(Answered two out of three all on your own Jack :) )
The stickers which the kill markings were printed on react differently to the light resulting, in my humble opinion, in a blurred reflection in the scoreboard area.

The photo is a staged "propoganda" photo using Gabbys aircraft.