What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

Hitler, when he saw the Me-262, powered by two Jumo 004 turbojets ordered that the aircraft be produced as a bomber. Because he was at this point obsessed with bombers for whatever reason. The people at Messerschmitt actually had to ask Hitler if the could produce a fighter version as well. Hitlers order to convert the jet powered aircraft to a bomber delayed the project even further. The bomber version, retained the same armament of the fighter version, the four Mk-108 30mm cannon in the nose, as well as proviosions for 2,207 pounds of bombs. This bombload penalized the aircraft as far as speed, and piston powered fighters could catch it. This aircraft had a top speed of 539mph, at 13,245ft. The range of this incredible fighter was 652 miles, an improvement over the early piston powered fighters. Now had this aircraft been used strictly as a fighter, and interceptor of the four engined heavy bombers of the allies, it could have made more an impact on the war. But most certainly would not have changed the war, just prolonged the suffering of the third reich, and its people. But i have heard of people who beleive if employed correctly, and a few hundred more were built, it could have changed the course of the war. In my opinion that isnt possible, but does anyone else beleive it is?

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

IMHO, quite simply, double the total number of Me 262s in 1944-45 make all of them fighters and the results of the overall war would probably have changed not at all. Possibly the end might have shifted a few days, but probably not even that, as the Nazi defeat came on so many levels that no single change could have saved the third reich. To give all the reasons requires eliciting the military and political situation at a level of detail far beyond the scope of this forum. Trust me, there was no magic bullet for the nazis after 1943 at the latest, probably even much earlier.

Best regards,

Artie bob

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

Granted, the number of Me-262's was small, and below the 2000 mark, and your right, it would have made almost no difference, because if the Luftwaffe could produce more in the first place, they would not have had the fuel to get them all in the air. Its nice to see someone who finally thinks realistically about the Me-262, realizing it would have had no impact, at the stage in which it was introduced. Thanks for your reply, i greatly appreciate them.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

Whoa, whoa. Just where do you think that Hitler got the idea that the Me 262 could be used as a fighter-bomber? On 27 June 1943, and, as I recall, on at least one other occasion, it was Willy Messerschmitt who told Hitler that the Me 262 could be used as a fighter-bomber, and that the conversion would be an easy one. At the time, according to his report of 2 July 1943, he sounded more interested in the production of the Me 264 and of the Me 209, than in the production of the Me 262.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

If the Germans had had access to sufficient fuel in 1944, would all those fully tanked up Me262s, Fw190s, XXIs, Tigers etc etc have actually rendered them unconquerable except at an unacceptably exorbitant price in Allied lives? (ignoring the A bomb)

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

hitler saw the aircraft, and asked Mr. Willy Messerschmitt if it could be converted to a bomber, and to appease hitler, he said yes it could, easily, but hitler then wanted them all to be bombers, and only after much talk did he say some fighters could be built.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

Nonny, the tanks made no difference, because no matter how many Me-262's germany had, they would only have barely enough to fight a defensive war, and not enough to provide cover for armor, or salients into enemy territory. And the soviet Js-2 and T-34 could take on the tigers, no matter how many, the russians could make more.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

Interesting discussion but please do not forget that programs like the 262 had been shelved early because they were not projected to be operation unitl 44 and the attitude at the tme was that they would not need them so production capacity was focused on the current. I think it was Milch who after taking over for Udet was touring the factory and was given a glimpse at the 262 and was not to happy that resources had been deverted. He wanted it stopped ASAP which is was not because of an agreement to allow some limited resources to be used on the project.


As for the reason for a bomber version I think this is due to the attitude (hitler, Goring, et al.) that only offensive aircraft need be built... I have found this attitude was very much in force until the full weight of the 8th AF combined with the long range fighter escort made itself felt.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

Just another example of the Luftwaffe too confident in itself, by only building offensive weaponry. and as for diverting resources, can you imagine what they must have felt like when they realized how badly this aircraft was needed, and how it may have had had some influence, no matter how minute.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

What Hitler wanted, and Germany desperately needed, was the means of ensuring that a Western Allied invasion of Europe failed. The only way to achieve this was to to defeat an attempted landing, and to do that he needed bombers. Fast bombers that would be much less vulnerable in the face of Allied air superiority. With this in mind, his comments on the 262 make perfect sense. Germany did need bombers too.

However, the development and production of the 262 was paced by the development and production of the Jumo 004. These could not be made available in any significant numbers any earlier than they were: the small engineering design diversion caused by the fitting of bomb racks was negligible. It was not a major problem, requiring huge effort or massive testing. It delayed nothing.

The diversion of production a/c to the bomber units may have had slightly more effect, but in view of the normal ramp-up of bringing a new type into service it is hard to see any major delays to the fighter side. In the end there were just not enough aircraft to go around, and Germany had lost the war well before the 262 appeared.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

I think Graham wrote all that had to be said ... but let me add a few thoughts:

- Because Germany was losing the war the Me 262 was not a very successful fighter (if I'm not mistaken its kill-loss ratio was about 1:1; but it was not a good bomer either)

- Jet fighters were better than piston-engined ones not because of their superior speed but becuase they could use low quality fuel

- Hitler may have been the biggest bungler in history - but he's not to blame for each and every German blunder in WW2.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

Jet fuel is by no means a low quality fuel:
There are two compositions:
100% Flugdiesel - a high graded diesel for flight engines

or

J2, a composition of Diesel and B4-fuel

These fuels were not lowgraded, but at the time needed scarce, means supplies were low or even not available.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

It was a pure numbers game and the 262 was always going to be out numbered by US fighters, slashing attacks were fine but if it slowed down to dogfight at all...well we have all seen the camera gun footage of 262's geting shot down.

Interestingly what are your thoughts on the RAF Gloster Meteor against the 262, I know the Metor stayed at home to counter the V1's but how close were these two fighters from meeting in the worlds first jet on jet dog fight ?

Also how did these two types compare ? and wich one probably would have come out on top ?

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

Just an additional comment - I want to add thet IMHOif it were not for efforts of Milch et al. fighter production may never have reached the levels they did.

Re: What if the Me-262 wasnt tampered with
 

You obviously didn't read my comment about the origin of the idea of the Me 262. I was commenting on Messerschmitt's report, not Hitler's.