NARA Seattle
 

Hi All,
Just found out about NARA Seattle.
In the online brochure it lists, German records captured at the end of WW2, anyone know what they are ?
or what aircraft records they hold if any there ?
Cheers
Jerry

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Additionally, I found out that
- they have a quite big amount of documents concerning the air war vs. the Soviet Union.
- it is possible to buy scanned microfilms on DVDs.

Who is experienced or wants to share costs of an order of DVDs?

Re: NARA Seattle
 

I would be interested to contribute financially if there is anything on the air war in Eastern Europe, 1941-1945.

Please contact me if I can join in.

Re: NARA Seattle
 

We must have first a list with the roll numbers and their discription, beeing able to give an order.
I know the procedure of orderig, what we need is a film-list. Who is able to help?

Re: NARA Seattle
 

I can - but I won't. :D
Honestly: I know some NARA-microfilm-roles of interest concerning Ostfront seen from OKL-point of view, but I don't know how to order...

Let's first collect some people and I try to find out more in the meantime.

EDIT: Some examples:

(will this maps be good quality?)

I get tired, so only one more:

Re: NARA Seattle
 

I don`t think, these codes have any thing to do with NARA rolls Jörg, they maybe refere to BAMA. I posted similar documents some time ago

www.gyges.dk/files_in_das_bundesarchiv.htm

I have the existing film-lists of the Wehrmacht and kriegsmarine, but not of the Lw.

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Byron, I copied the quotes above directly from a pdf-file with a NARA-emblem on top. I think the material was microfilmed and then handed over to the Bundesarchiv.

The advantage of NARA is that one can order DVD's instead of traveling to the BArch. Or does Freiburg also offer electronic copy service?

Your lists are also very interesting, thanks for that link!

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hello!

Some of the descriptions do look familiar. I believe these are available as microfilms but you have not included the roll number(s). If I had to guess they are from group T-321 and roll numbers 12x or around that. I have some rolls with nearby code.

BTW. I think the German records are not held at the NARA Seattle site. Are you sure you restricted you search to Seattle site only or was the search area for the whole NARA? At least I was not able to find any German records held at Seattle.

Kari

Re: NARA Seattle
 

From someone familiar with the NARA:"The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) is headquartered in Washington, D.C., mostly in the Roosevelt-era building downtown but also at Archives II - College Park (where you have been). These two operations, however, are but the tip of a bureaucratic pyramid. The NARA also operates 13 regional depositories within the United States. One of these regional depositories is located in Seattle; another in Kansas City; another in East Point (Atlanta) Georgia; another in the Dallas area; one or two in California, and so forth. The regional depositories are charged with receiving and conserving the obsolete records of federal agencies within their geographic region.In addition to the regional depositories, the NARA also operates two National Personnel Records Centers in St. Louis, Missouri: one for military personnel records and one for civil personnel (i.e., retired civil servants) records. It's possible that there are yet other miscellaneous activities and facilities of the NARA, but I never heard of any others.So far as I know, the only way that any German records could possibly be found at NARA/Seattle is thru its accidental/incidental holding of copies of RG 242 Captured German Records on microfilm, the same material that we buy on microfilm from the NARA at College Park, where the masters are held. Because of the expense of copies and other factors, I am seriously skeptical that any captured German records on microfilm exist at the Seattle Regional Depository."

Re: NARA Seattle
 

To be honest, I more or less hijacked this thread because on teh day it was opened I found out about the documents I listed above... :o.

So, I did not know anything about NARA's locations...

@ Kari: The role number is included, look out for three-digit number as fat below:
Do you have role 121 / 0000194 whic is also in my above examples?

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Wher is the T...... number, without it is nothing to order by NARA

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Kari is right. I did some research on this and found out that T321(B) is the guide to look for. In this guide at four pages is information about German aircraft losses in the period 1944-1945. See survey below and attachment.

Is this 60% of the missing part of the "Holy Grail"?

I have ordered the roll 112 and have just received it. It looks like it are radio messages received with information about losses of the Luftwaffe in the mentioned period. Sofar I have seen 6 frames of the final part of the filmroll.

Jaap


ITEM DATES ROLL FRAME
OKL/416 1944/08/01-1945/03/30 112 0000528
OKL - Gen. Qu. 6. Abteilung.
General Quartermaster Branch 6 reports on aircraft losses through accidents and in combat.

Page 60

ITEM DATES ROLL FRAME
OKL/402a-b 1945/02/16-1945/04/01 210 0000002
OKL- Generalquartiermeister.
German Air Force Quartermaster daily reports of air personnel casualties and aircraft losses on all fronts.
Page 125

ITEM DATES ROLL FRAME
OKL/416 1944/08/01-1945/03/30 212 0000004
OKL-Luftwaffenfftihrungsstab Ic.
German Air Force Quartermaster Branch 6 reports on aircraft and flight personnel losses based on intercepted enemy radio messages. (This item is also reproduced on T321, roll 112, frames 528-694.)
Page 127

ITEM DATES ROLL FRAME
OKL/441-442 1944/08/01-1945/01/31 217 0000003
OKL-Generalquartiermeister.
Daily casualty lists for German Air Force personnel and parachute units on various fronts.

Page 130

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi, guys.

Very interesting indeed.

I have noted that the finding aids are listed as being GG24, GG92 and T176/rolls 15 and 30-31.

Can anyone please provide me with a straight forward way of ordering things from NARA. Tried a few years ago, but frankly gave up... it apparently took them about 6 months to give me an answer...

For example the above references, how should they appear on an order form?

Well, fired away an email to the NARA, and will hope for an answer!

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Is this 60% of the missing part of the "Holy Grail"?

I have ordered the roll 112 and have just received it. It looks like it are radio messages received with information about losses of the Luftwaffe in the mentioned period. Sofar I have seen 6 frames of the final part of the filmroll.

Looks really interesting , wonder why just now discovered, is the quality of docs like your model Jaap or bad copy ??
If you need some money for the other rolls..

Remi

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Andreas, I will send you a PM about the ordering procedure.

Remi, thanks for your offer but money is not my problem. See the present $ versus € rate. Time is my main problem the next two, three months. We are finallizing our publication about the history of the Dutch airfields during WWII. It has to go to the printer in March 2009.
An other problem is my HP Scanjet 3800 scanner. I have used it for scanning microfilms for the first time but I am not quit happy with the results sofar. As you can see. I am learning but will also have a look for a professional reader/scanner/printer in our local Hist. Centre.
I had the idea of digitizing the film and put it on a DVD. NARA has this roll only on film.

The reason why now is simple. I was triggered two months ago by some remarks in this thread and recognized the OKL/123 way of coding. Next step was looking at NARA for a guide with OKL information. In doing so I have found more interesting guides and information(rolls) e.g. for my research for Dutchmen serving in the Luftwaffe. For our project about a/c losses in the Netherlands I have given priority to roll 112 of the T 321 guide. I ordered the roll at November 3rd and have just received it. The first results are interesting enough for letting you folks know.

Jaap

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Andreas,

Ordering at the NARA is not difficult, once you get the hang of it. All is done online.

Microfilm:
to download the two finding guides GG24 and GG92 go to https://eservices.archives.gov/orderonline/ press the blue button “Microfilm”.
Enter “T321” in the top search box. Click through on the result page and you will find the two PDF files on the right. Determine what to order and then, on the same detail page, click on “Continue to order” to order individual rolls. You will have to create an online account to do this. You can pay with a credit card.

Paper items or asking questions:
NARA apparently no longer responds to requests sent to inquire@..., you will have to use the online forms. Again, go to https://eservices.archives.gov/orderonline/ but press the blue button “Find & Request”. This will lead you to a wizard where you will have to select a generic topic and subtopic before you can enter your question or request for quotation. Your query will be dealt with online but you will be alerted to a response by e-mail.

I hope this is of some use.

Regards,

Hans

Re: NARA Seattle
 

here in belgium there is a company who can make from microfilms pictures but i have to go there to figure out their price its depending if they canb do it automaticly or manual.
my micro's comming from NASM are 3,5 cm wide
i have a contact in the area but he is not doing it for free the avantage of this guy he is taking his time to search it and you will have it faster than on regular way.

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Dear All,

This is a very interesting thread.

About a year ago, I tried to order a microfilm roll online from NARA II, but the software failed to function properly. I ended up calling and an apologetic person on the other end said yes, they were generally called to take the order information, recognizing the online ordering issue. As I recall, one roll cost me $65, which is pretty steep. It took maybe 2 months to get the reel.

I was very interested in the comment about NARA now being willing to supply the microfilm as a DVD, which would resolve the problem of locating a decent microfilm reader/printer or trying to scan the microfilm, as Jaap has tried to do with less than stellar results.

Creating a decent microfilm reader/printer today should be a slam dunk and maybe some company out there has risen to the task. However, I am not aware of such and the best that I know of is a Canon90 that does a decent job with text, more or less, and a pretty lousy job with photos.

The Canon90 I use is at the NASM Garber archives and it has its own quirks. Best copies are made near the end of the toner cartridge's life. A fresh cartridge won't print as darkly or capture as much detail from the microfilm and, as with Jaap's example, that detail can be pretty marginal.

There is also an ongoing issue with microfilm/film scanners, that being that you must, in most cases, cut up your precious reel into short lengths to scan the film. If willing to do this, likely a dedicated film scanner is the best bet. An alternative might be a lighted lid scanner, which would allow you to keep your reel intact. I once saw a researcher doing exactly that with 35 mm movie film at NARA II with pretty good results.

If anyone has more information on the DVD option from NARA, please do share it here.

Regards,
Richard

Re: NARA Seattle
 

One question: Is it possible to get microfilms in a digital shape? I don't know how to handle that microfilm-stuff...

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi, Jaap

I have access to a Canon MS 300 and can scan all kinds of microfilm.

The most interesting roll seems to be the 112/212 roll, however the intercepted enemy radio traffic info leads me to believe that this in reality are western allies or Soviet union losses, and not German ones. We will see...

It would be interesting to see if the data on the 210 roll are the standard reports, or if it is simply the same as RL 2 III 767, RL 2 III 1197 and RL 2 III 1199.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi, I've had no problems in ordering material from NARA, it arrived ok.

Also I've scanned the mircofilms myself in my scanner. You need a scanner designed for scanning negatives (with a light in the lid). I've scanned 6 frames from the mircofilm per scan and it generally comes out better than in a mircrofilm reader with the distinct upside that I can access the material whenever I want and not only at the library...

/Mike

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi guys,

I have used the sunday for doing experiments with my scanner. I must say that after the first trials I am now making good progress and am able to scan three frames at one time with a good quality. After that I cut the scan in three seperate files for each frame. Do some picture processing for good contrast and sharpening and am quite satified at the end with the result.
Will keep in touch about the progress.

Jaap

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi, guys.

On the topic of Foreign records seized.... anyone been doing research in the so-called Berlin documents??

From the overview in the NARA list this consist of at least 16000 !!!! rolls of microfilm....

Sorry! It should be 19000 rolls...

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hah!!

First roll ordered... only downside delivery/processing time of 30-60 days (+ shipping I guess)

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: NARA Seattle
 

roll ordered... only downside delivery/processing time of 30-60 days (+ shipping I guess)


That's let time to think about...

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi Everyone,

OKL/416 contains:

- a small handful of Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt ('Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Fliegenden Verbänden') loss returns for the 1945 period (nothing that isn't already available elsewhere), plus a single Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt loss return for non-flying personnel.
- some volumes of Vordruck II for a Fallschirmjäger unit in August 1944
- lists/details of Luftwaffe casualties/PoWs as broadcast by the Western Allies on German language propaganda stations in 1945. It appears that work was done to tie up the broadcast details with the loss returns.

OKL/405a & b contains:

- an incomplete set of Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt ('Flugzeugunfälle und Verluste bei den Fliegenden Verbänden') loss returns for the 1945 period; again, nothing that isn't already available elsewhere.


I've attached some sample images from OKL/416...

Cheers

Rod

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Dear Rod and Jaap,

Rod, your scans are still better than Jaap's improved scans. What are you scanning them with? I also note the framing lines of a reader/printer, possibly suggesting that you are photographing its screen. True?

Jaap, keep trying. Hopefully, you'll eventually capture all the weak detail.

Regards,
Richard

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi Richard,

yes, in this case I have photographed directly from the reader, which is a method I still prefer.

In general, IMHO, scanning of microfilm is only feasible if the reproductions on film are large and clear, or if done on a dedicated film scanner (4000 dpi minimum) that allows mf to be feed through without the need to cut it up. Even many professional flatbeds don't have a high enough optical resolution to make acceptable reproductions from mf, especially from 16mm film (such as those from AFHRA). Many of these flatbeds artifically increase the resolution over and above what they can achieve optically, but this leads to loss of detail.

An example are the scanned PDFs of the IWM loss return microfilms that are circulating (and can be unofficially purchased from the IWM). Quite frankly, the clarity is of these scans are disappointing in parts, especially considering the size of document reproduction on the original film. The lack of detail in many of the scanned pages makes it impossible to read and transcribe data. The same applies to scans from microfilm offered by TNA archives, Kew. I still prefer to purchase duplicates of microfilm from Kew, rather than the alternate PDF scans, because it costs about the same and there are more options for post-reproduction from mf (one can greatly enlarge a mf page on the screen of a reader, in order to see detail, but the same cannot be done with a scanned page because of the limits in reproduced resolution).

'sorry for diverging away from the topic of this thread. Anyway, attached is a photographed sample page from an AFHRA 16mm microfilm; a type that I have found almost impossible to adequately reproduce with a scanner...

Cheers

Rod

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Dear Rod,

You have raised the interesting question as to scan resolution from microfilm as provided by archives. If this is, indeed, of poor resolution, then it is not archival and one needs to find another way.

When I go to the NASM Garber archives, frequently the microfilm is uneven. That is, it may be dark on the left and transiltion to light on the right, or some such. Using an average exposure, some data will undoubtedly be missing. So, my policy is to make multiple exposure printouts to be sure, as best as possible, that I have captured all of the information on the page.

Scanning the microfilm with a high resolution film scanner would likely obviate this issue, as the scan could be made in full 0 to 255 mode, then the page worked on to present a copy readable from edge to edge, essentially better than what is on the microfilm.

As you note, the key would be to find a lighted lid scanner that has the resolution needed while eliminating the necessity of cutting up the reel of film. Any suggestions as to equipment that can do this?

I do have a microfilm reader but never gave consideration to capturing the image directly from the reader's screen. And, seeing that it has no grid lines, as with a reader/printer, this could prove to be a good method. Next up, of course, would be to plunk down for a good digital camera. Capabilities are increasing every year as the prices keep falling. So, timing could be a bit of a ways off.

Of course, capturing from a frosted glass is not as good as directly from film, so I'm still all ears for a good recommendation for a film scanner, especially one where I wouldn't have to butcher the film.

Regards,
Richard

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi Richard,

I guess that where there is a will, there is a away. I have to admit that I'm am advantaged by having a photographic background, and admit that the sample pics from microfilm posted above were taken on a reasonably decent camera. Yet the benefits in investing in a DSLR camera are there, especially because such cameras can increasingly be used to photograph original documents in many archives around the world (TNA, NARA, National Archives of Canada and Australia to name a few), and thus save on time and photocopying costs.

Of course, vignetting is a common feature when dealing with microfilm, but there are ways to fix this. Adobe Lightroom, for example, is a fantastic program for post-production, and has controls to fix vignetting that work well (and batching options to apply the settings to a range of images). However, this software is expensive.

One of the disadvantages I found trying to scan, was that the time invested in scanning was not rewarded with a high enough quality output. Using a DSLR with the right lens (i.e. a decent 50mm/f1.4) and photographing the mf from screen has just been way quicker than scanning and at a much higher resolution...

A company called Wicks & Wilson make professional microfilm scanners, but, no doubt, they are expensive...

http://www.wwl.co.uk/rollfilmscanners.htm


I'm sure that I've recently seen reference to a 35mm film scanner that had the option of being able to feed uncut 35mm microfilm through, but I cannot remember the make or model.

Cheers

Rod

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi, guys

With regards to scanning of microfilm there are of course several factors...

The reason Rod is successful using a camera and photographing the reader screen is of course that the film already has been enlarged to approx A4 size on most readers by the reader optics, something that will not happen when you use for example a flatbed scanner.

Another aspect here is of course time... scanning at very high resolution on standard flatbeds will always be a time consuming process.

I have a reader at home, but additionally I use a Canon MS300 dedicated microfilm scanner at the local library from time to time. I have bought a SCSI card for my laptop and simply plug the reader/printer/scanner into my laptop when I am working there, the drivers and scanning software available from Canon's website. I get very nice 600 dpi scans from this unit.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Is it allowed to use your own camera in NARA Seattle ? I am going to Seattle in June and would like to visit the archive.

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Dear Rod and Andreas,

Thanks for your comments. I agree that scanning microfilm to capture documents is a slow procedure. The method I use, the tried and true printing out of multiple exposure levels onto paper, gets me there rapidly, avoiding the intermediate steps of scanning microfilm with a scanner and then printing. Don't forget the cost of printing a scanned page in terms of ink as well as the time involved. Depending on whether I'm dealing with a monster document or many smaller ones, I can knock out 200 to 300 pages in a day at the Garber archives, some of these being, of course, multiple exposure levels. At $.30/copy, it gets the job done at a price. Frankly, I just grin and bear it. If you take into account a motel cost of $70/night, you can't push the copy button fast enough.

The screen capture with a digital camera from my microfilm reader is certainly a lesser expensive possibility, although there is the cost of buying a copy of the microfilm roll, a real consideration. IIRC, the price is $30 at Garber, $65 at NARA II. So, at $.30/frame, one can copy 100/200+ frames single shot and not bother with buying the reel. And, those familiar with Garber reels know that the subject matter tends to come in clusters of short documents, with perhaps only a dozen pages of interest on the reel. In this case, buying the reel is foolish, unless...

Unless one is after the photographs. Then we are right back to the proposition of a microfilm scanner. The Canon90 at Garber is not well suited to reproducing photographs.

At NARA II in College Park, the last time I was there researchers were heavily into using them to copy textual documents. Scanners are also allowed at NARA II. Snapping a page is quick and one gets excellent reproduction of what is there. However, you are always bending over the document and being a jack-in-the-box, trying to shoot as straight down as possible, but frequently the page will be distorted. Also, the page may not lay flat, adding to the distortion. Using a scanner or one of the copy machines avoids this problem and electrostatic copies there from textual records are $.15 each, or were the last time I was there. On the other hand, like Garber, printing from microfilm costs $.30 per shot, although this can include 2 frames, assuming you are lucky and they are of the same density and reasonably squarely oriented on the film.

Rod, what do you mean by "vignetting"?

Regards,
Richard

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi Richard,

vignetting is the fall-off/loss of light intensity that radiates out from the centre of an image captured with a lens. In the case of a microfilm reader, it can also be caused because the illuminating light source (bulb) is positioned in the centre of the frame, and the light intensity will decrease towards the edge of the frame, visibly showing as the centre of the frame being brighter than the edges. My initial experiments some years ago in photographing off a microfilm screen, using a 4 MP camera, produced strong vignetting, but I found a year or so ago that this could be easily corrected during post-production in Adobe lightroom. I haven't seen the problem occur with my DSLR. I believe that the problem was compounded by using the 4 MP camera at the widest aperture; the vignetting being a result of the poor optical performance of the lens at the widest aperture.

Cheers

Rod

PS - I have found a DSLR to be worth its weight in gold during visits to various archives. Like yourself, because of the costs associated with visiting archives, I want to maximise the amount of information obtained. One trip, to Australia, resulted in 4,500+ pages of photographed documents, while another trip to TNA, London, resulted in 11,500+ pages of photographed documents. Any identified document where the reproduction was critical (such as plans, maps, diagrams) could always be re-copied properly (i.e. flatbed scan or photocopy) later.

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Regarding taking photos of documents I've developed a method which saves my back and enables me to take high number of photos of real documents with fairly great ease. I've mounted my DSLR on a tripod, making the camera point downwards and then I've got remote controll for the "fire button" which means that I don't have to look through the camera for each shot. Sometimes I also mark the space on the table which I should keep the document within to be sure it is fully covered in the picture. The only drawback I've experienced is that possibly one photo out of 100 or so becomes unsharp so I've taken the precaution on very important documents to check the results in the camera or make paper copies.

Obviously it draws some attention from staff and other visitors when you mount a tripod on a table in the reading room, but I've been able to take large volumes of photos of documents and at the same time be seated in a comfortable position turning pages and snapping the shots whenever I find something of interest, or just fire away to get it all and sort out it later when back home.

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Dear Rod and Mikael,

Good suggestions, indeed. Rod, what is this magical camera and lens that you are using? Mikael, what is the tripod and remote viewing setup that you are using? Images of each send via e-mail would be appreciated.

One ugly little drawback in copying at NARA II is that one has to get approval to make the copies in the first place. This consists of someone completely lacking in knowledge reviewing the document, looking for whatever, then providing you with an NND label which needs to be visible in whatever you copy. For using copy machines, it isn't a really big deal, as you tape the label somewhere to the platten surface. I'm not sure what they do in the case of scanners or cameras. I will say that the tape they use is especially sticky, generally leaving a gummy residue on the copy machine platten.

The NND label indicates that, regardless of the classification shown on the document, it is unclassified/declassified. Thus, it is a good idea to copy it as well. The decision to declassify has been made much earlier and the NND number appears on the box the document came in, not decided by the person giving you the label.

The only time I can recall that I was ever prohibited from copying something was a photo in a binder. I think they were worried about breaking the back of the binder. Other than that, approval appears to be proforma.

The next issue has to do with whether to take the staples out of the document to get a good copy. "Good" is in the eye of the specific person at the desk. Some will willingly remove the staples while others will give you a hard time, forcing you to badly bend the papers and hope and pray that they aren't too brittle and break. A stapled document will also prove more difficult to copy by camera or scanner.

Regards,
Richard

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi, Mikael!

Also very interesting in any aspect of your setup:

- Camera type (I have a Canon EOS400D)
- Lens
- Camera setup (RAW? JPG? Size?)
- Tripod type
- Remote control type

On the side... as a plastic modeller, I made a plastic guide for my scanner to use for microfilm rolls. Works very nicely indeed, and I do not have to open and close the lid. In addition, the film stay on alignment.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: NARA Seattle
 

Hi Andreas,

I've got a Sony Alfa 100 with a 18-70 mm lens and a light weight Manfrotto 785B tripod which is short enough to fit in my hand laugage when flying - very pactical when on a short but important mission to an archive... :-) The remote control is the short (1m) standard version sold by Sony. The photos I take are of 3872*2952 pixels and the size ca 2mb in .jpg format. This has proven to be enough even for low quality documents. Since I have a PC with me and spare memory cards space is obviously not an issue.

Regarding scanning, Like you I've also got a guide and then an empty microfilm role so that I can role from one to the other withouth having to open the lid when moving up the film for the next sequence to scan.
All the best
/Mike