16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello,
I would like to obtain some help to identify the losses of Spitfires claimed by JG 77 on 16th April 1943.
There were 4 claims:
1- Reinert
2- Bär
3- Berres
4- Hossmann
I know that 243 and 92 Squadrons were active and claimed Axis planes that day. Any known losses that matches those German claims?
Yours
Adriano

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello Adriano,

Found the following losses on spitfires.ukf.net with 16-4-1943 and area Tunisia: AB502 (A/C Gleed), ER116, ER502 and ER858. Also one damaged: EP702.

I'm sure other board members can give names of pilots and what squadrons they were in.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello Adriano,

according to Fighters over Tunisia by Christopher Shores, the Me-109s of the JG/77 were in combat near Cap Bon at about 15:45 with ten Spitfires
of the 145th Squadron and three Spitfires of the 92nd Squadron which were attacking thirteen Italian SM82s. Two Spitfires of the 145th Squadron failed to return, piloted by Wg. Cdr. Gleed and his wingman, Sgt. J. K. Rostant. Four Italian MC202 of the 151° Gruppo escorting the SM82s were involved in the same combat, and claimed three Spitfires for no loss.


Best of Luck
Marco

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello Leendert and Marco!
Leendert, thanks for pointing to me the losses of Spitfires that day. With the serial numbers I can try to dig out the names, codes and Squadrons involved.
Marco, your information clarified the combat I am researching: JG 77 versus 145 and 92 Squadron. BUT, I do have 1 Bf 109 destroyed and 1 Bf 109 damaged claimed by F/L Evan D "Rosie" Mackie from 243 Squadron on that same day, West of Medjez-El-Bab.
Do you have the names of the Italian pilots from 151 Gruppo that claimed Spitfires that day and the number of SM-82 shot down?
F/L Neville Duke ( 92 Squadron ) claimed 2 SM-82, but I do not know IF other pilots from the same Squadron were involved and claimed as well.
Thanks for helping me and pointing me out to the correct track.
Yours
Adriano Baumgartner

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

On 16 april 1943, following an attack by Spitfire, four S.82 were shot down in the sea (survivors were rescued by the military ship "Libra") and one landed at Tunisi with 2 dead and two wounded.

Gianandrea Bussi

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello Adriano,

Except for Duke, the other two pilots of the 92nd Squadron, F. O. Savege and PO. G. Wilson, were successful in shooting down respectively 2 and 1 SM82.
Claims of the 145th Squadron are:
1 Me109 destroyed by Fl. Lt. Shand
1 Me109 destroyed by PO Small
1 Me109 destroyed by WO McKinnon
2 Ju52 destroyed by FO Laing-Meason
1 SM82 destroyed by F/Sgt. Anderson

The Spitfire of the 145th Squadron attacked 13 SM82s of the 44th and 45th Stormo. In addition to the losses described by Gianandrea Bussi, other three SM82s were forced to land at Soliman.

The 243rd Squadron was in combat about at the same time west of Medjez-El-Bab against Me109 of I/JG53 and shot down one Me109 G-4 flown by Fw. Arno Fisher who force landed south west of Tebourba.

Unfortunately I don't have the claims of the Italian pilots.
I was mislead by one source to write that those pilots were from the 151st Gruppo. They actualy were from the 54th Stormo.

Regarding the losses suffered by the 92nd and 145th Squadrons near Cap Bon that day, there is a discrepancy between the book Fighters over Tunisia (2 losses) and the website mentioned by Leendert (three losses).


Regards
Marco

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Sorry, I mistake:

just 1 Ju52 destroyed by FO Laing-Meason

Best Regards
Marco

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hi.

Seems to be only one JG 77 Bf 109 lost on this date due to enemy inflicted damage.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hi Marco and Andreas!
Marco: Fantastic information! Just what I was looking for. Thanks for pointing me out the names of RAF pilots who claimed that day. Just one correction F/O Savege is actually F/O Thomas Wood Savage ( 105167 ) who finished with apparently 4 victories. I still do not know if he was shot down ( I am checking this out right now ).
The information about the Macchis and SM-82 was much welcomed. Thank you so much, Marco!
Andreas, yes, I found one missing in action, but are you sure there are NO more losses for JG 77 on this day?
This is the MIA pilot and plane:
16/04/43 Lt. Rüdiger
Belling 1./JG 77 Bf 109 G-6
(16485)
white 9 Combat with Spitfire,
20 km n.w. of Cap Bon


Yours Adriano ( still searching )

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello! Back with news:
S/L Laing-Meason, DFC ( 103564 ) was killed on 28/10/1944
F/L T W Savage, MID ( 105167 ) was killed on 10th July 1943
W/O Hugh McKinnon ( NZ 411081 ) was killed on 07th May 1943
S/L Ian Harry Robert Shand ( 80102 ) got the DFC as well a DSO on 17th March 1945 while OC of 237 Squadron. Apparently he survived the war. Anybody would have a picture of him? Or a link to him?
Does anybody have the names of the pilots of SPITFIRES shot down? It seems one of the pilots managed to parachute. I do not know if he was made POW or escaped.
Thanks and the researches goes on...
Yours
Adriano

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Adriano
Ian Shand passed away a few years ago in Rhodesia, Zimbabwe by then. I think I have a photo of him somewhere, taken in April 1943.

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello Franek!
It would be nice!
P/O Bruce Edward Anderson ( J/17616 ) was killed on 25th April 1943, I think he was the then F/Sgt ANDERSON, mentioned earlier.
Anybody has a clue about the names of the pilots shot down?
Adriano

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello Adriano,

out of the four Spitfires lost that day in Tunisia, one (flown by FOW. K. Clarke of the 111 Squadron, KIA, probably ER502) is shot down at about 7 pm near Beja during a fight with Me109s and therefore it's not related to the fight we are describing.
The other three are shot down near Cap Bon. One was flown by Wg. Cdr. I. R. "Widge" Gleed of the 145th Squadron (KIA, IR-G AB502); the other two by his wingman, Sgt. J. K. Rostant (seen by another pilot bailing out) and by an unknown pilot (ER116 and ER858).
According to Italian pilots, one of the Spitfire pilots they claimed, was rescued by the torpedo-boat Libra.


Regards
Marco

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Marco, Widge Gleed was Wing Commander, sorry, forget the number at the moment.

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello Marco!
Thanks again for clarifying the Air Combats over the Desert on that day!
I first thought that JG 77 had claimed 4 Spits ( from your first post here ). Now you clarified that possibly ER502 was shot down on another combat, much later, which brings new light to the combat I am researching.
W/C Gleed´s service number is RAFO 37800. He was promoted F/L on 3 September 1940; got the DFC on 13 September the same year and was promoted S/L on the 1 September 1941. I do not got his promotion to full Wing Commander and actually do guess he was Acting Wing Commander. ( Will check later ).
By the way, he was OC of 244 Wing and I read somewhere that:
1- He was homosexual ( is that information correct ?)
2- That there was an OC of 244 Wing who was later killed ( but I did not find anything about him ) named W/C Jack Darwin. Does anybody have heard about him?
Thanks a lot for the help. By the way Marco, any clues against which Luftwaffe or Italian Squadron that 111 Squadron pilot faced on his last combat? ( 7 PM )
Yours
Adriano

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

33237 Wg Cdr John 'Jackie' Darwen was CO 244 Wg from Apr-Jun 42 then 243 Wg and back to 244 Wg until Mar 43. KIA 7 Oct 43 with 239 Wg

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello Adriano,

It seems that at about 19:20 noth of Beja, the Spitfires of the 111st Squadron, together with planes of the 72nd Squadron, engaged a formation of 23 FW190 of the III./SKG10 escorted by Me109s of the JG53. The German planes were returning from a bombing mission over the Souk el Arba airfield.
PO Kirkwood of the 111st Squadron claimed one Bf109 and Fl. Lt. Gale one probable; FO Hardy of the 72nd Squadron also claimed one probable.
One Spitfire was claimed (evidently FOW. K. Clarke) by Fw. Frankenberger of II/JG53. JG53 may have claimed another Spitfire, but I don't have any detail.
One FW190 of the III./SKG10 damaged by anti-aircraft fire, belly landed 10km south west of Mateur.


Regards
Marco

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

F/Lt Shand (left) photographed with S/Ldr Skalski in 1943 in Africa.

CENTURION: RAF squadrons used cardinal numbers (No. 145 Sqn) not ordinal numbers ("the 145th Sqn"). USAAF used ordinal numbers for their units.

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Chris, thanks for the correct name of G/C "Jackie" Darwen. May I ask you if you do have information about his loss on 07th October 1943? ( Acft number and codes, for example? ). He was OC 239 Wing, but I do not know if he was flying a Kittihawk or a Mustang that day.
MARCO: Thanks again for the 111 Squadron inforamation. I do have all 3 JG 53 books by PRIEN back home and can take a careful look to match the losses and claims that day. I will post it here, as soon as I got home ( I am now some 3.000 km away from home ).
VOYTECH: I do not know your name, but thanks for posting a picture of F/L Shand from 145 Squadron. Very kind of yours.
May I ask both of you if the name of SGT J K ROSTANT is the correct name? I tried to find his service number or his complete name but got no joy! Are you sure this is the correct name of W/C Gleed´s wingman on that day?
Yours
Adriano

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

I believe it was a Kittyhawk

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello All,

Adriano: I confirm that, according to Shore's "Fighters over Tunisia", the name of the wingman of W/C Gleed is SGT J K ROSTANT.
VoyTech: thank you for the clarification.

Regards
Marco

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hi Leendert

Being very late to this thread, I have some questions regarding the Spitfire losses this date.
AB502 certain (unit and date fits)
ER116 certain (unit and date fits)
ER858 certain (unit and date fits)
EP702 ??????? All I have on this Spitfire is that it went to Malta passing Gibraltar and was damaged on this date. Why do you link it to Tunisia? Have you any additional data for this?
ER502 ??????? All I have on this Spitfire is that
a) it was used by 601/225 Sqn and SOC 26.4.45 (Halley, Air Britain) or
b) it was sent on vessel Camaratha Leith to Takoradi where it arrived on 14.12.1942. Transferred to the Middle East on 1.1.1943. No units known but lost on 16.4.1943. Same question here, why do you link it to Tunsia?
It seems Halley has made a mistake here and version b is correct...

Cheers
Stig

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Stig,

Linking EP702 and ER502 to just Tunisia has been optimistic from my part.
Looked for Spitfires lost/damaged on 16-4-43 in N Africa area in the first place to get Adriano on the way.

According spitfires.ukf.net ER502 FTR Middle East without detail, and for EP702 it says damaged by enemy aircraft. I assume for the latter that it was in the N. Africa area, because it had passed Gibraltar earlier.

Regards,

Leendert

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

The individual record card for each RAF aircraft (Form 78) which was held in the UK does not record allocations to squadrons in North Africa or MTO. Normally the card will record only the date despatched from UK to wherever (Takoradi or Casablanca) and the date that it was confirmed as arriving ie the details in Stig's (b). The card may record other bits of info for example from censuses that were undertaken or the date the a/c was lost or SOC.

The details of sqn allocations for a/c sent to MTO and recorded by Jim Halley in the AB books will have been collected by going through all the sqn ORBs so that is almost certainly where the details "601/225" in Stig's (a)come from.

I would say that it is quite possible that both sets of info at (a) and (b) apply to the same a/c ie it was shipped to Takoradi; it was presumably air ferried to Egypt and then confirmed "on charge Middle East". AB suggests that it was then issued to 601Sqn and at some point transferred to 225Sqn.

Like all clerical systems there is always room for error and board members will be aware of many errors in recording of a/c serials in ORBs.

Steve

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Thanks Steve

You are absolutely right, I should have checked the whereabouts of 601 Sqn AND 225 as well, since both were sent to NA. I wonder from where the written off date of ER502 is to be found?

Thanks Leendert

Not saying you're wrong, just that our sources don't 100% nail any if these two losses to this combat, just that they occured the same day...

Cheers
Stig

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

SGT J K Rostant was my grandfather known as Keith Rostant. And can confirm he was wingman to Gleed. Keith died about 8 years ago in Scotland.

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

I've been doing some research on the Rostant family. I'm pretty sure that JK Rostant's real name was John Keith Rostant. Any official records would probably have used that name.

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Hello,

Re: The identity of W/C J Darwen's Kittyhawk, lost on 7 October, 1943. HMAW4/Shores et al, page 402 has the following:

Thursday, 7 October 1943.

British Casualties.

239 Wg - Kittyhawk II left 1625, shot down by flak in the Palata area; Wg Cdr J. Darwen DSO, DFC and bar, KiA.

260 Sqn - Kittyhawk III FR868 left 1625, shot down by flak in the Palata area(No 2 to Wg Cdr Darwen) Sgt K. R. Trevelyan KiA.

It is known that Kittyhawk III FR868 was Darwen's personal a/c, marked "JD". Seems strange that Sgt Trevelyan was flying Darwen's personal aircraft. Can someone confirm which aircraft W/C Darwen was flying on 7 October, 1943?

Col.

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...298#post130298

I wnt through AB's Kittyhawk serial numbers AK,AL,ET,EV,FL,FR, FS,FT,FX, for 260 Sqn.
Could only find these for October '43.
FL237 - damaged by flak 7/10/43, not repaired.
FR850 - Hit by flak, belly landed - 6/10/43.
FR858 - S/d by flak 7/10/43.

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Col

You are probably correct, 260 for October continued their practice of not mentioning serial numbers or even code letters at all for another few months. They don't mention Darwen at all, unlike 112 which lists him when he flew with them, including the details of his aircraft. This leaves the question, which may not be fully answered until the Air 81's are out for the events, of what the other a/c lost was, and who was in what aircraft. I would agree the probability is Darwen was in FR868.

Russ

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

Russ,

Thanks. Thought we might have elicited a response from "Buz" Busby - haven't heard much from him of late.

Col.

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

This re-newed thread makes it possible to discuss further the actions of 16 April 1943 (the original thread)

Since I now am in possession of MAW Vol 3 some things mentioned in 2008 does no longer fit the bill so to speak. I am not going to re-invent the wheel. Those interested can compare MAW 3 with what has been said back then.

With regard to the Spitfire losses there are some mysteries
ER116 not listed in MAW 3 (Halley says with 92Sq and shot down by Bf 109 off Cap Bon 16.4.1943)
A South African, Michael Schoeman, wrote in 2010 that ER116 was with No 1 SAAF and prob shot down 17.4.1943 by either a Bf 109 or Macchi 205.
MAW 3 from 2016 echo this and says basically the same thing.
From other sources it seems that the British records indicate a loss 16/4 and not 17/4 but SAAF records indicate a loss with them on the latter date.
Checking Winston Brent and his SAAF 85 years, ER116 is not listed as having been transferred....
Anyone who would like to have a go about this aircraft?

EP702 is now listed as a 229Sq aircraft damaged this day and probably turned into spare parts since nothing was ever heard of it again. (1 plus for Leendert!)

ER502 is not listed by MAW 3 but stated by Morgan/Shacklady to have been lost on ops 16/4 as well.
Still very curious from where that date originate and if correct (which I somehow doubt) why it is not included in MAW 3. Anyone?

Cheers
Stig

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

ER116 Not listed in "85 years of SAAF".

Re: 16th April 1943 - Mediterranean Spit losses
 

STIG and ALEX,

Thank you so much for the resume this old thread. It is amazing how new INTEL or INFO can add or change Military History.

At the time I wrote this, the AIR Files were almost non-accessible to me then....so I was really blind. There are some of you (Nick Beale, Alex, etc) that do know where and how to travel amongst the MAW or INTEL Files; so you do oppen new roads for the "sprogs" like me....it is all fascinating.

Who shot down who on that fateful day? Slowly this and other Historical puzzles (do follow Dr. Theo Boithen's threads and try to match claims to losses on the RAF side on his NJG Series) are matched.

THANK YOU BOTH for those addditional information and clarifications. Most welcomed by me and other fellow members (I guess). Keep going and keep safe!

Adriano