Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Hi,

In Prien/Rodeike's excellent Bf 109F-K monography (English edition by Schiffer), it is stated on page 13-14 that the radiator cut off valves were fitted retrofit in 1941, at least in the case of JG 51 and 52 machines; these kits were highly prized and crews rushed for downed planes to save these valves for use in combat worthy aircraft. Then it is noted that they were not fitted to the G-series aircraft.

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction here, as looking through the Bf 109G service and flying manuals, the cut off valves are depicted on the 109G-2, being under the instument panel on both sides, and the instructions also prescribe their use in case of coolant leak. This would point to that the cut off valves were a kind of standard fit on the 109G.

Similiarly, the 'Griff für Kühlerabchaltung' is shown in the 109K Handbuch from October 1944.

So, is this an error in the book, or in the manuals?

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

I would say an error in the manuals. Manuals were far from flawless. For example, the G manuals continued to show the P-6 reversable prop spinner deep into 1944. It was never fitted. Also, because of the above, they continued to show the G series length shorter than it was. Whoever was writing and then reviewing/editing such manuals was asleep at the switch.

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Is this possible to check from reports of downed enemy aircraft, field experience reports by the LW. etc?

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Wasn't the cut-off valve in the F only limited to ONE handle cutting of both? And in the G they were seperate left and right?

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

I don't have a manual in front of me, but if you closed off both radiators the engine would still overheat and sieze. No coolant flow= high temps till something blows, and it would happen rapidly.

I would think 1 valve per side to stop which ever side is leaking.

Regards,
Mike

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

On the 109G (from 109G-2 Handbuch), there are two levers actuting the system for each radiator lines.

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Appearantly these kits were still issued in 1945, the following March 1945 report from Mtt AG shows, if I understood it right, that additional 150 cut off valve kits were ordered by 5. Jagddivision.

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Maybe a nice example of practice versus theory?

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

I am not if this is not a case of exceptions that proves the rule; reading the text of the book, and taking into account that these valves were still fitted in 1945, I tend to believe that this statement was more of an educated guess on part of the authors, based on some reports etc. of aircraft that lacked this feature. Such exceptions are numerous in practice (i.e. some G-14s did not have armor fitted, but these were probably converted from high altitude versions which didn't have armor fitted as opposed to standard fighter versions).

So, I am still puzzled.

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

If it helps, I own an Me109G-2 (one of the very early ones) JG5, and it had the shut-off valves. It arrived in Russia, and was immediatly invloved in only 1 sortie beofre being shot down. So for sure it was installed at factory as oppsed to a ground crew installation.

All Me109G's onwards had the 2 shut-off valves, as you can see the handles in many museum examples.

There are many mistakes in Prien/Rodeike's book, so more likely a mistake in the book.

mike

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Thanks a lot for the confirmation, Mike. I tried to photograph the cockpit of the one in Belgrade, but the side plexi was so ruined (full of bubbles) I could only take photograph from the top, and from there I believe the knobs are not visible.

PS: You are a very lucky man to own one of these birdies. :)

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Hey Mike... could you please borrow me that 109 on Sunday, I need to shoot down my neighbour's LaGG-3 ;).

Seriously: Can you maybe post a picture showing the switches of these valves?

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Hi guys,

Here is a bad image of a G with the 2 shut-offs (yellow).

http://www.me-109.com/999999y.JPG

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Mike, would it be possible to post some photos of your 109? What other info can you give us this 109?

Thanks

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Hi,

Me109G2/R6 W.Nr. 013927, Yellow 6. JG5. Here are the wings (DL+HA). One of the previous owners used most of the G2 fuselage for G6 410077 (he owned both at the time). So 410077 is 90% a G2 fuselage with a G6 tag...very sad. So what I received was G2 wings with G6 fuselage (badly damaged, not useable).

The pilot on 013927 (Fenten) is still alive after surviving a Russian POW camp.


http://me-109.com/wings.JPG


here is a rough translation of his account:


With the first daylight the II.//JG sends 5 aircraft to the Murmanbahn. Two of them meet hostile airplanes. They report the loss of 2 Soviet machines in aerial combat, a LaGG-3 609. IAP 258. IAD at 8.37 o'clock and a Hurricane 435. SAP WWS 26A one hour later. Both pilots remain unhurt.

At 1030 a swarm of the 6/JG5 start a free hunt for Kandalaskscha: Lt Weissenberger, Ofw. Rudolf Mueller, Fw. Hans Doebrich and Uffz. Rudolf Fenten. Over the target area the group has enemy contact with Russian fighters and receives fire from Flak.

With a low attack Ofw. Rudolf Muller observes, how BF109 G-2 "yellow 6" at approx. 100m height at the northern edge of the city disappears in the smoke of two locomotives. It comes thereby into well laid fire from flak. A takeoff of the machine cannot will observe. Uffz. Rudolf Fenten, who did not return from this employment,

From Fenten (2001)

My last employment was from Alakurtti. A swarm flew the employment. At ground level down I brought down a Russian on approach to Kandalakscha.

The Flak shot between us. I circled and remained low, as Ehrler made, and of the Flak missed. Then I attached myself at the right side of the Russian formation leader, how he pulled up(?).

Again he flew back to the field, but very high. Muller was northwest from us at a similar airfield. When I was under the Russian, I pulled up.

The radiator was attached under the fuselage and I shot all the weapons. It flew directly to the sheaf(?) inside and went down.

That was my Nr.2 over Kandalskscha. It impacted in the city between the airfield and the houses. The Flak shoot so wildly between them that I was worried that I wouldn’t make it home. The projectiles flew past on the left and on the right, but did not hit my machine. I could reach a height of 7.500 m and flew directly home. The Flak did not shoot any more.

After two minutes the engine suddenly stopped, before I had heard a sharp metallic noise. I assume it wasn’t hit, but the engine was overloaded. It was a new G-2 and I had, in order to get out of the Flak, probably over rev’d the engine. I thought it was the end of me. I put the landing flaps out 2-3 degrees and flew toward Alakurtti. I did have 2,000 m however that was not enough in order to still reach the base. I did not want to go into the tundra(?) where the Russians were. Then I saw three cone mountains, where something flashed. I was sure it was still the enemy’s area. Between the mountains a lake, recognizable because of the smooth snow surface, but that was very short. It gave a few blockhouses, where I could perhaps purely. I was already close over the trees and thought that I would sweep inside. The time was 11:00 o'clock.

Closely over the snow I held off the machine. I stepped into the rudder, there was a small river, which flowed into the lake. But there was nevertheless a crash - the propeller dug itself into the deep snow. Everything was dark green. The head broke open on the Revi - blood. Twenty minutes unconscious. Pain. I had to get the hood hardly up. I jumped into the high snow and got the snowshoes from the machine. I stopped 20-30 steps from the machine. I ran toward the blockhouses. After 200 m I heard voices in the forest. They approached, but German or Finnish they did not speak. I pressed myself more deeply into the snow hole and piled snow up before me. The seven Russians, one with the MP and six with rifles, went to the machine. Once the on-board weapons fired. One of the Russians had probably pressed the button at the club (stick?). The troop leader shot with the MP, in order to scare me. Four men came to me. I secured and hid my pistol. The Russians said, "hands high!" - I was now prisoner of war.

In captivity, with the interrogation in Murmansk I spoke with a Russian first lieutenant. The interrogation was more polite than later with the NKVD. I was afraid I would not be going home, and said first, I had only two or three victories, in addition I had a heavy head injury of forced landing on the lake. I was imprisoned by a Russian reconnaissance patrol had been taken along by them.


The young Russian wanted to give me a cigarette, I smoked mine. My head was in-printed with the Revi. After four days we arrived at Murmansk and they brought me into a shelter. During the interrogation the Russian officer, said I had more vitories, and asked me "why did you lie? He spoke about me and I asked how he knew about me. The Russian answered, which had him Hauptman Schmidt said, which would have spoken much about his fellow German combatants and would have given much information. (after the war Schmidt later related the reason, why he had told the Russians so much. It was the heavy pressure.) I said to the Russian then that I have six or seven victories. He was decent to me. I said to him that I would not have had an opportunity meet with Schmidt. He said, he believed me. In the shelter, when I opened my eyes, a Russian "doctor" was there and also a flying officer (I believed, he was the one who I had shot). The "doctor" said, "why have you lied? Say to us the truth(?)! Then you will return faster." I asked, "where have I lied? - "you say, you only transferred airplanes ." The "doctor" tore a document up, in which many honors were. "if you the true time say, then they are better. "During the course of the three days on the carriage(toboggan?) I had considered, what I would say during the interrogation. I would say that with the transfer of a machine I had to make an emergency landing. But when the "doctor" came and asked with the document, "why are you lying?" I said to him finally in plain language that I was active as a fighter pilot of the 6 squadron and flew combat missions. He asked me to tell him more.

It is not well-known us, as many firings announced the German hunters. Anyhow the loss of two LaGG-3 is shown (609 IAP 258 IAD, a pilot fallen, who wounds others) in archives, which were shot at 11 o'clock in the proximity of the airfield Afrikanda. Several search flights to the missing Uffz. Fenten were fruitless.




:)
mike

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Excellent picture, Mike, thank you. Where does it come from, I don't think I have seen this particular report yet... is it the US G-6 EB-102, WNr 16 416, ie. http://www.kurfurst.org/Tactical_tri..._US_EB102.html ?

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Hi!

Yes, that is correct. Other photos I have of this aircraft are marked "North American Aviation", so for sure it is 16416...

One thing I have found out...

I was checking on the G-10's here in the US, and NONE have the shut-offs. All have the 605D. Curious if these were actually more specific the 605A...

:)

mike

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Maybe the Eastern Front operators were more anxious to have them installed!

:eek2:

What about those in the MTO?

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Oh!

Also, they were re-located to the firewall area in the later G6-K4 models...as opposed to under the engine.

mike

Re: Radiator cut-off valves on Bf 109F-K
 

Thanks for the pic and info Mike.