GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Hi guys

According to 'Battle of France Then and Now', GC 1/145 mistakenly shot down two Battles of 103 Squadron (Thomas and Kelly). circa 1130.

There is no mention of this incident in Belcarz's 'GC 1/145 in France 1940', although it seems that Laguna and Lukaszewicz possibly claimed Bf109s (none were lost). In return, 1/JG3 did shoot down two Caudron 714s of GC 1/145. circa 0845. So it would seem that these two operations were unrelated, timewise.

Therefore, who shot down the two Battles?

Cheers
Brian

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

GC I/145 flew two missions on the day, during the first Łaguna was credited with one Me 109, while Łukaszewicz was not, he mentioned it only in his later account. The second, at 1040 was a scramble to intercept German raid coming from Chartres. No enemy was encountered, and I have seen no mention of the incident in any Polish source.

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

103 ORB records the incident as follows for that day:

Day operations by Squadron from Echimines. One aircraft lost with crew as follows:- P/O. Thomas. L.A.C. Bligh

Aircraft flown by F/O. Kelly on operations severely damaged by Hurricane aircraft who attacked without challenge when aircraft en route to target. F/O. Kelly compelled to return to base.

Be interested in the evidence for not being a Hurricane friendly fire.

Best

Iain

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Hi,

during first mission (between 08.30 and 09.00 a.m. or 08.00-08.45 a.m.) they claimed 2 Do 17 (sure) and two Bf109 (one sure, one probable).
During second mission (10.40-12.00) on the way back after combat air patrol (following pilots took part in this mission: Cne Frey and Wczelik, Lt.Kowalski, Wilczynski, Czerwinski; S/Lt. Czerniak, Jaugsch, Glowczynski; Sgt. Palak; as well as C/C Parafinski and Zielinski) they spotted unknown plane and dived to recognize it. They were shelled by this plane and also opened fire before they recognized that this is a British plane - so it could be Fairey Battle from 103 Sqn.

Regards

Robert

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Thanks guys

So far we have the possibilty that a Hurricane accounted for Kelly's aircraft and one of eleven Polish pilots for Thomas' aircraft. Who of the latter opened fire? And who might the Hurricane pilot have been?

Cheers
Brian

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Brian
As I said, I am not awared of any Polish source, but will ask a friend about it. He is busy at the moment, so it may take a while.

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Hi Brian,

no claims were made after the second sortie.

Regards

Robert

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Hi Franek and Robert

Of course, as I mentioned, the information that GC 1/145 was responsible for the attacks on both Battles comes from Peter Cornwell's excellent TBFTN - so there must be an official record that Peter was able to access.

Perhaps Peter will be able to confirm his source?

The mystery continues .........

Cheers
Brian

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Brian

If you look into Arnaud Gillet's book Les Victoires de l'Aviation de chasse Francaise Vol III you get a totally different interpretation of this combat.

As always, after so many years, I guess it is hard to relate either to written documents or surviving records.

Pilots in those days could claim almost anything and in the heat of combat who could blame them. Ever been shot at in a war situation yourself or up in a fast aeroplane in a combat situation? Anyone who has knows the difficulty of getting the facts right, so interpretation is very much the historians playground....in our easy chairs....:roll:

Cheers
Stig

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Hi Stig

I haven't a copy of Gillet's book - would you kindly advise his version of this event?

Cheers
Brian

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Sure Brian, here it is

On page 67 is the general description and on page 141 the summary.

Starting with the summary, we can see the early mission by the Poles between 08.30H and 09.00H where they made their claim for 2 x Do 17 and 1 Bf 109 (+ 1 Bf 109 probable)
He links this combat to JG 3 and their three (well, two according to Prien) claims of Caudrons at about this time and area.

Their next mission between 10.40H and 12.00H was the one where they made one further claim, a Hs 126, by pilot(s) not listed by Gillet. It also seems the Poles at the last minute did recognize the aeroplane as British and stopped any further attacks. This claim is linked by Gillet to the damaged Battle of 103 Sq flown by Kelly (He is also pointing out that the Poles were flying in their assigned sector….)

The shot down Battle (K2328) is on the other hand linked to a claim made by Ltn Schoss of 1./JG 3 who claimed a Caudron shot down at 13.05H (12.05H French time) while on an escort mission with He 111. However I cannot locate any Lt Schoss making any claim with JG 3 (all units).

Two Battles were lost with one crew. The Polish flyers made claims against only one, so it is interesting to find out who made a second claim. Anyone who knows who Ltn Schoss is?

But the whole day is full of conjectures and speculations which only shows how extremely difficult it is to make sense of claims vs losses. Just looking at the first combat claims made by the Poles

Four fighter formations made attacks on bomber formations escorted by Me 109. The only loss historians can link to the Poles is the loss of a reconnaissance Do 17P. Now these units certainly did not fly and bombing missions and as far as I know never in any larger formations. The Poles were attacked by I./JG 3 and in particular the 1 Staffel was successful against them. However the only link made to the Poles claim of a Bf 109 is that from the II./JG 3. Nothing very obvious to me, but sure enough aeroplanes cover a vast amount of space and with the amount of German aeroplanes “shuttling” back and forth during maximum mission days I suppose anything is possible.

Cheers
Stig

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Much appreciated Stig

Possibly one of the mysteries of such confusion that will remain unsolved, as you suggest.

Thanks for taking the time to translate and type.

Cheers
Brian

Re: GC 1/145 10 June 1940
 

Brian
It must be solved the source of Gillet's claims first, as there is no mention in Polish documents about the event. I am wondering if the book is any reliable at all.