PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Hello

I am not too sure abot the tailplane strut - but I cannot identify the a/c being sold as ebay photo 6182418998 as anything else.

If it is Poland - 1939/40 then all that comes to mind is the Jastrzab

Have a look-see - what do y'all think?

Graham

Re: PZL 50 Yes you are right
 

Hi
you are this is the second example of PZL P.50 Jastrząb, made in Warsaw.
There were tow prototypes one in Warsoaw and second which flown to Lvov force landed before
Reagrds
Mirek Wawrzyński

PS
The first photos which presnets more the know so far before 1 IX 1939

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Hi 2 U 2

Blackhawk down......................:shock:

I am hoping and praying that this photograph will go to a buyer in Poland.

The P 50 may not have become such a good aeroplane as the P 37 or - when they were introduced - the P7 / P 11 series.

It is however a small and bright diamond in the sanguine 'korona' of September 1939

46 or 50 - prototypes only, but their legacy is greater than the sum (no pun intended) of their parts...

Graham

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

I think every Pole would like this picture to go to Poland.
Here, on a Polish WWII forum we have some amatours attempts to reconstruct the shape of fuselage:
LINK
Go to the lower part of the site

Fantastic Megazlotys
 

And it has - a wonderful if expensive thing.

I apologize to anyone who was cursing me (lisa4mf) all last week but my intentions were pro-Polish.

I was afraid of the Canadian - Now the right buyer(s) ;-) has brought it home.

Graham

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

do you want to bet on this?, unless you are eagleking.

i think this photo will reappear for sale at a very high price.

Polish buyer????
 

Hi

The buyer of the photograph is OK - one of the best.
The image will surely soon be published.

Thanks for link to your forum - gets a bit too argumentative for me.

Graham

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Hi Leon

What I see from your countrymen resembles either a pregnant P36 or a streamlined RATA UTI. Clearly the high spine makes the accepted (drafted) cockpit teardrop of the /II model questionable.

Similarly the tailplane strut and the fork u/c are of interest.

I now await the initial publication with great interest

Graham the Farmer

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Graham,
[TEXT EDITED by Moderator] Anyway, seeing the photo for the first time it struck me, that the aircraft looked most obvious for a next in line PZL fighter. The question is why the reconstruction looked so different - perhaps an effect of comparisons to Seversky?
Most interesting is clearly visible profile of the wing - I have not seen that information.
Cheers

well I am not worried - just bemused
 

Hi Franek

In repect of this aeroplane - I do think that it may cause a total rethink of where PZL were going with this design - no chin intake etc. The cowling / motor will be very interesting - when soon published

As for the Polish forum of Leon - I do find some of the postings rather 'ridiculous' (especially those of the fox) but not the forum - despite the surplus of silly thumbnails and mottos with every posting. Nonetheless Ruy's right to moderate in this piece of Oranje Cyberspace seems irrelevant when the 'objectionable' text remains visible. I must presume that this is an example of the traditional Dutch disciplined tolerance ;-))

At least Ruy has saved us from the thumbnails and exhortations.

As for this PZL - well I still would be very cautious about a decision as to which airframe it is. I look forward to wing root armament information.

Graham

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Guess more stupidity than Orangeness at work there, I thought that the comment was Moderator eyes only :)

chin intake - my mistake sorry
 

przykro mi....I naturally mean the extended chin intake visible on /II drafts.

As for the location - does this corner of Warsaw still exist???

Graham

Re: well I am not worried - just bemused
 

Graham
Ruy has suggested not to discuss another forums here, and I find it not worth of any possible problems for him. If you have any problems, go for mail.
Regarding Hawk, I think most important is to find the reasons, it was believed to look different. I cannot exclude that there were several versions discussed, and even I can imagine a 'teardrop' canopy could have been seriously considered.
Cheers

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Yes, it does - and this building in backgroud nowadays looks nearly identical as in 1939 - corner of Dmochowskiego St. and Miechowska St. One user (KK) of "funny" forum took a picture of this building....

amazing
 

Thanks Leon ;-)

It is amazing that the building has survived - unless it was rebuilt post-war - as it had been before 1944. It always narks me that Dresden is held up as an example of pointless nastiness - whilst most Germans haven't a clue as to how Warsaw was left in 1944 without the attentions of any heavy bombing.

Looking at the P 50 - the extended exhausts of /I seen on all drafts to date of /II seem a no-no - as there is an open port cowling access panel visible. The tailplane looks as though it may have been an adapted P11 / P24 type . The photo suggests late 1939 - before the snow. U/c tyres are deflated. The gap in the spine behind the soldier to the left is curious. The whole impression is of a much bulkier potent fighter than a Seversky.

I hope that I am given good warning of which magazine will publish first .... ;-))) prosze panstwe!!!!

Graham

PZL 50 in Warsaw
 

What a LOT of excitement. A dramatic and appropriate return home.

:-)

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

This famous picture is said to be published in magazine 'Lotnictwo" No. 6/05, with comments by J.B. Cynk and A.Glass.


http://www.magnum-x.pl/pol/index.php...=227&Itemid=91

happily ever after....
 

It is of great comfort to me that J. Cynk will be involved.

Graham

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Yes - that's info directly from editor -in-chief of Lotnictwo magazine Mr. K. Zalewski.

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Quite contrary to several offensive posts on some forums, the photo will be published in several Polish aviation/modellers magazines. Lotnictwo put the photo on A4 format, so everyone can study details.

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Thanks for this update Franek. I shall not be satisfied until it is on a postage stamp!

Graham

Re: Now is photo of PZL 50 in 6/2005 Lotnictwo
 

Hi to all
The whole photo is now reproduced on a full A-4 page in Polish magazine Lotnictwo 6/2005. No any English captions ect.

I have see it 2 days ago (no is 23 VI), so it is true.

To the photo is attached 2 short stories about the plane written by Galss and Cynk.

I can only add to Franek that some idiots remarks done earlier by other memebrs on others forums about hiddening such rare item were completly idiots too.

Regards

MirekW
PS
I. Graham PZL P.50 is not so important plane to make it special on a post stamp. It was only a second prototype and nothing more. Weak plane indeed.

Better would be have on a post stamp for example P.11 g Kobuz. This plane at least took part in combat and achived/claimed 2 victories over Germany planes. Also any photos of P.11g are not yet known. It is probably that this plane had escaped to Rumania on 17/18 IX1939.

II. Probably Skrzydlata Polska will do also any materials about P.50 too. So the accesability to the photo will be in Poland for Polish readers and aviations hobbies quite wide, and popular exactly for 10 or 6 zlp as costs one of both avaition magazine :-)

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

hi mirek,

instead of hiding behind the expression "some idiot", be man enough to name names!
i still stand by what i said, how much money is being made out of this photo?,
how much research is being carried out?, where are these accurate drawings?(just from photo's i think not)
for proper research you need experts from all over the world, not just a few who think they are.
if you wish to carry on the discussion, or feel the need to slag people off, then do Ruy the favour of doing it of board.
YOU HAVE MY E MAIL.

experts????
 

Hello

All the people involved with the purchase of this photograph are renowned experts on Polish aviation. They are not a mafia.

Glass & Cynk are among the best in the field. That should be known to anyone interested in Polish aviation.

Most experts on Polish aviation are either Polish - or of Polish extraction. They are well capable of proper research. Such 'proper' research should not be equalled to world-wide free access on web-sites.

How much money is being or will be made - does not in this case seem to have much relevance. Publications are not usually free - even for experts. Money always changes hands.

Graham

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Lets all have a coffee break here...

This is an interesting topic, lets not spoil it by personal attacks.

Please lets get back on track.

Re: experts????
 

Well, reading some comments on some forums, indeed there may arise impression, they were written by idiots.
Concerning the photo, I doubt if royalties will ever cover the cost of acquisition, especially as the photo is already in public domain. Simply, some people lost some money to make the photo widely available. I am not writing on behalf of owners but I think anyone willing to support the acquisition with a few Euros may get a highest quality scan with publishing rights.
Regarding the research - indeed all the most important Polish researchers got the photo, and that is just enough. I do not think there is any non-Pole in the world, who has a comparable knowledge on the subject.
A lot of conclusions can be drawn (see forthcoming Model Hobby magazine for a very interesting article) but it must be not overestimated the knowledge hidden there. I think the most important is that the photo was at last found and not the details of the aircraft visible there.
PS German official photos are not copyrighted and I suppose it may apply to eg. Hugo Jauer collection. I am not sure about photos privately taken by servicemen.

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

hi franek,

back to the matter in hand, do you know if any of the engineering and lofting drawings were saved, having worked with a very fine polish gentleman years ago, who described to me in very fine detail how their country was ransacked by the germans i would be very suprised if any of these were still around.
also is the said photo the only one of this aircraft?

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Hello (again)

Pretty well everything that was known about this aeroplane (prior to this ebay photograph) may be found in the Putnam book, "Polish Aircraft 1893-1939" by J. Cynk and printed in 1971.

This book is however as rare as rocking-horse dung , so you may have to seduce a few librarians to track one down.

Of course there are also various Polish language references available with pretty graphics - but the essence is contained in the Putnam book.

ttfn
Graham

cameras & snapshots????
 

As an ex-RAF APOP who has seen it & done it at Cosford, I am sure that this photograph was taken privately on a 6 x 6 twin-lens reflex by someone who was not used to the reversed image in the viewfinder. The slant evidences this and the image field suggest a Tessar type lens.

Graham

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Soviets were even worse but anyway no PZL drawings are known to survive for any of their aircraft.
There are known four photos showing bits of the prototype and this one showing a first series aircraft.

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

The only thing I find is 3 pages of text, a contemporary artist's impression, and a 3-view from Vol 3 of William Green's "War Planes of the Second World War - Fighters."

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

hi graham and franek,

i thought so, i already have all there is in the old books, what really interest me is where did the wing planform come from in the airtist impressions? i don't recall any photo of the aircraft with this visible.
bearing in mind this design was very differant from all their previous aircraft, then where did the idea for the wing shape come from for the artist to use?
this is all very interesting.

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

There is a photo of port wingtip that allows some conclusions. Also, watch out for the next Model Hobby issue and a stunning article there.

Drodzy Cztelnicy
 

well... I have got used to the French not recognizing a border between the Netherlands and Belgium, but that the Poles do not differentiate between rich Americans and rich Canadians comes as a surprise.
So much for the Chicago connection.

But the deed is done and the Jastrzab has landed


now for the RWD 14 ;-)) nie mam nic do oclenia panstwe!!!

Graham W.

Re: Second article about PZL 50 in Skrzydlata Polska
 

Hi
There is the second article edited in monthly magazine Skrzydlata Polska (Czerwiec /June 2005). The author is Jerzy B. Cynk and on 2 pages are small story about PZL P.50/II. There are also 4 drawings made in 1941 of this planes quite similar to the orginal on the photos. Drawings were made by engineer who worked in PZL Okęcie before IX 1939. And later in war made this drawings.
This is the second publication of this photos in Poland.
BTW: text in Polish, no English captions ect.

Regards
MirekW
PS
Skrzydlata Polska can have about >20.000-30.000 copies, printed monthly, costs 6 zlp, which is about 1,5 Euro in Poland.
Photo is wery well reproduced.

PS 2
Some idiots (size of big buffalo) had said very broaden and almost histeric, several weeks before, that this photo will be missing for ever and will be hidden very deep from the public view!

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Can you confirm that every photo sold on ebay ends up published, as this one thankfully has? I suspect not. Perhaps you may then understand why more than one group could be bidding for a subject, without either being idiotic or ill-intentioned?

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Graham, those comments were far beyond good taste. Otherwise, I do not think it is wise to make any such comments not knowing who the buyer is, is not it?

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

Which comments? From which side? I don't see this as single-sided goodies vs baddies. Excuse any possible cynicism, but watching from the outside it as it developed, I saw no see any guarantees of publication presented. Unsupported claims, maybe. And a certain arrogance that was perhaps not intended.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and we can judge from the actions - the photo has been published where it belongs. In advance it was far from clear. Perhaps the price was driven up unneccessarily, but who else was in the bidding? And what might their motives have been?

Re: put my foot in it????
 

Hi Franek
I was poking fun at the editorial. It reads like a fairy tale – using the given stereotypes of typical Poles and "rich Americans" with their photo-albums

I was under the acute fear that rich Canadians were the threat! I cannot neither deny – nor dare to suggest, that Canadians are in a broad sense Americans.

I suppose that "rich Americans" are a more easily recognized stereotype in Poland.... despite the considerable Polish populations of certain US cities

Truly the fact that this photo ended up in Poland and has already been made available in print is laudible. All credit and thanks to those involved. Names do not need to be stated.

But for those who have no access to computers or the internet – this "first" editorial provides a strange view of ebay auctions – and ignores real cloak-and-dagger aspects, such as how the photo crossed into Poland. Indeed are Polish enthusiasts without PCs even aware how much was paid?

So if I have caused offence – sorry!

Graham

Re: PZL 50 on ebay????
 

"I cannot neither" - dear me - my English teacher is spinning in his grave