Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Dear all,
referring to The Mighty Eight War Diary by R. Freeman strafing was officially banned on April 10 (and likely on April 13), 1945. Could youz please let me know whether there is any evidence strafing was approved on April 16, 1945?
Thank you. Regards, Filip

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Filip - by the number of strafing missions executed by 8th FC it is clear the ban was not in place on April 13 or 16. Roger incorrectly attributed 339th FG for 'breaking' the ban on the 11th (The Mighty Eighth) but they had their big day on the 10th along with the rest of 8th FC

The only reference to 8th FC imposing a ban on strafing was following the April 10 results which was continued on the 11th and 12th - for which 8th FC did not even fly missions.

Following the April 12 mission, the 8th FC apparently relented but cautioned the 8th Fighters to strafe only when sure of being well clear of Allied lines.

Regards,

Bill

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Bill -
On 4/16/45 Hundreds of LW Aircraft were
Destroyed on the Ground by 8th AF Fighters.
4/17/45 - 4/20/45 Many LW Aircraft Destroyed
on Ground by 8th AF Fighters.
Mike

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Mike - yes. I am well aware of the results of the 13th and 16th as the 355th bagged about 120 combined on those two days. Dad got his only ground scores on the 13th.. IIRC the 18th WAS the last day sanctioned for strafing as no more ground scores are recorded fro 19th--->EOW

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Not being up on the activities of the 8th AF could someone explain why straffing was banned - either temporarily or permanently? Cheers.

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Presumably to avoid high losses, which were not necessary to win the war.

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

The Allied ground forces were advancing too rapidly at this point in the war to risk friendly fire causalties is the primary reason.

Franek's point should have been considered but wasn't (risking pilots and a/c to flak while strafing airfields)

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

I think Bill is right - one can take a look at where positions of Allied troops were located in in mid-April 1945:-)
Filip

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

The reasons for the post April 10 (brief) ban are documented in all the squadron and group histories of the 355th and 4th FG.

The April 13 Mission for the 355th was 'pot luck' in that my father who was group exec, spotted many German aircraft on Husum inbound to the target. They broke escort when relieved west of Hannover and cruised north. The group strafed Husum, Flensburg, Schleswig and Leck as Denmark was a safe place relative to the Allied advance.

Other groups were strafing Eggesbeck, Salzwedel, Luneburg and Schwerin areas.

April 16 was largely in Czechoslovakia and SE Germany all around Munich and points south, southeast (Austria) east, north and NE. Huge scores but the 8th AF FC lost its highest total of the war with 34 downed - all by flak. 4th lost 8, 355th lost 6. In all 10 of the 15 Fighter Groups lost fighters to German flak. Worst of the war (or best depending on POV)

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

One Mustang was shot down by a Hungarian Messer on that day (confirmed by ground witnesses) But that's a very messy day with several open questions related to A/Ds and units, which strafed them. So I was not able to identify that particular Mustang yet.

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

That area would most likely be 15th AF Mustang as the 8th didn't operate anywhere near Hungary except during the Shuttle missions in summer 1944.

I'll see what I can find on this Mustang

Regards,

Bill

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Bill,

It was an 8th AAF Mustang and it happened over Austria (S of Raffelding) Hungary was totally seized by the Red Army at this time, but the Royal Hungarian Air Force retreated to Austria and continued the fight.
There were Mustangs in some cases, when the real cause of the loss is uncertain (no American eyewitness of the crash) Reporting a plane without witness as a victim of AA fire not means automatically, that it was shot down by AA fire for sure.
Incidentally, Mustangs shot down several Hungarian Messers also. Another interesting part of the story (since no known claims).

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

I agree on the 'unknown' aspect of a loss - I usually attribute those to enemy aircraft when German fighters were in the area.

Any squadron codes, etc for the Mustang? How else would the Mustang be identified as 8th AF? The 364th FG engaging around Nordingen with 109s plus some Recon units plus several 31st scores (15th) were included in Mustang totals.

The 354th FG (9th AF) scored 14 near Torgau but that is a long way and they lost no one.

The 355th was down in the Linz area near Eferding and Straubing.. All six crippled by flak per Macr eyewitness reports. One of the pilots, Long, was captured just short of Russian lines - the other two made it and bellied in NE Straubing. All POW and stating flak as cause in the post VE Day Casualty reports.

4th FG not too far away but also in Czechslovakia near Kbely and Praha.

The three other 355th losses made their way west, one crashlanding near Schweinfurt, the other two west bound made it to Allied lines.

The only 355 MIA pilot that was KIA was Lake and he was seen to be hit, lose control and hit a church steeple near Linz.

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Bill,

I can only repeat, what I written about this day in 2001: the attackers maybe belonged to 355th FG and/or 353rd FG, but no sure details (the airfield was strafed repeatedly on that day and it was a very busy day).
And don't forget: sometimes the strafing figters reported erroneously their target (they strafed in fact a different A/D).

On that day 31st FG flew two escort missions over Northern Italy (supply drop)

But at the moment I have no time for this story at all, maybe in late 2009.
Incidentally it is not so rare, that there are few US kills and no known claim (I know several additional ones, when ground witnesses and surviving crewmembers firmly stated, that the particular aircraft was shot down by US fighters and despite of this, there is no claim on US side).

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Also true for both sides - e.g. an aircraft is believed hit but no observable damage and escape in clouds - only to fall later from the damage.

Or MIA, reason unknown.

I just finished reviewing all the 353rd and 355th Macr's and talked with the surviving pilot that witnessed Joe Lake hitting the Chruch Steeple (Lake has no Macr).. so I know all the 355th losses were flak.

I looked in the USAF 85 for 8th AF awards.. 1 for 338FS/55FG, 2 for 364FG HQ, one for 376FS/361FG.

The 55th was operating Munich to Augsburg area, the 361st was in the Reichersburg to Halndorf area and the 364th was near Marienbad to Pucking area.

Then there is a possiblity that the Hungarian unit could have picked off a 'stray' damaged Mustang trying to reach Russian lines.

The key to 8th AF id remains a positive squadron code or a/c serial number to trace back to a unit.

The rest were 9th AF - 354FG Mustangs or 365/368/371/406 P-47s

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

an aircraft is believed hit but no observable damage and escape in clouds

I mean: evident kills. Burning, crashed planes after the first pass but still no claims. On that day for example, the Hungarian fighters were pretty badly mauled by the Mustangs during take off: there were instant crashes, baled out pilots, large flames and still no claims. Even the mentioned pilot, who got the Mustang was shot down later by another one and baled out.
I went through my materials again and I found few other possible US units also, but this is still a very hazy story (and unfortunately, I have no time at the moment to digging even more deeply).

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Dear all, referring to Mighty Eight War Diary two P-51s of 7th PRG were also lost but it is not clear whether due to flak or to enemy fighters.
Regards, Filip

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Filip - it mentions two losses and USAF 85 has two awards for the 15PR Sq on the 16th.

They did have organic P-51's at the end of the war to escort the F-5A's so this could be what Csaba found... although the area and id's would need to be matched?

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Oops, Bill is right, of course, these were F-5. They could cover this area, I pressume.

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

Both Mustangs (44-11569 and 44-72173) crashed due to engine trouble reported over the radio.

Lieutenant David T. Davidson (13th Photo Squadron) was taken prisoner near Rosenheim, MACR 13924. Flight Officer Willard H. Watkins (14th Photo Squadron) bailed out over Ingolstadt and landed amongst advancing Allied troops.

Re: Strafing banned or approved on April 16, 1945?
 

They would - but the PRG had obtained both P-51D's for escort of the P-38/F-5A and I know the F-6 with wing mounted cameras were in ETO late.

They were certainly in the right area, more or less, to cover Straubing and Eger, etx