Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Hello,

Does anybody know the location of the manufacturer's data plate on the Bf 109K fuselage?

Regards,

Batur

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Although I have not confirmed the K's main plate location by period photographs, it is known that on all prior series 109s the airframe main plate was fitted externally to various locations (but often standard for specific 109 model and manufacturer block) on the left side of the fuselage, within the general area aft of the engine cowling up to the cockpit.

Anyone have a photo showing a main plate on a Bf 109 K?

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Hi Batur...

Of all the Me109K pics I have seen, I have never seen a data tag on the outside of the fuselage like other Me109's had...so no clue where it would be :(.

mike

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Thank you for the replies. I have never seen a manufacturer's plate on a K either Mike.

One more question: The name of the factory which built the Bf 109 was written on the early style main data plates (the long rectangular ones). "Erla Maschinenwerk G.m.b.H. Leipzig" was written on Erla builts, while "Wiener-Neustadter Flugzeugwerke Ges.m.b.H." was on the data plates of WNF built 109s. In addition to the Erla, WNF and Arado, many 109s were produced at the Messerschmitt Werke Regensburg plant. Do you know what was written on the data plates of MTT Reg. built 109s?

Regards,

Batur

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Getting back to Bf 109K-4 data plate location, do you think this is a manufacturer's main data plate under the canopy?

http://old.messerschmitt-bf109.de/pi...01-swfoto..jpg

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Hello all,

Does anyone else realize what that photo depicts? This is an ultra rare Erla-built K-4 with a WNr. of 570 37_! This is only the second one I have seen documented. What a great photo, Bavgan. Thanks.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Bavgan,

I got so excited by your new K-4 photo that I forgot to answer your initial question. Yes, I believe that that is a factory ID tag, applied in the typical "Erla" position. Again, what a great photo.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

And it shows that apparently Erla-built K-4s had the same rectangular panel (and eventually no chin bulges and differently machined upper and lower engine cowl) than on their peculiar G-10s...!

Many thanks to Bavgan from me too...:D

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

HI Batur,

Personally, I do not think that is a data plate. It is almost all white. Of course, one could say it was glare form the sun reflecting off a black plate, but the sun glare is on the back of the plane, just near the swastika.

I suspect it is a US ID or tag added at wars end (common to see ID's, notes, etc. on captured aircraft).

Mike

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Very interesting all dark kamouflage.

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Great photo! I suspect it's a plate. Both position (for a 109) and size are appropriate. As for the standout lighter color, some later-war 109 G series plates (I've two) were simply pieces of rough-cut aluminum sheet with rather crude hand-stamped entries. Those plates were not etched to begin with or painted after stamping/installation. Think of shiny aluminum. Maybe that's what's seen on this K. Hopefully, in time, more photos will surface and the debate will be resolved. Of course, my dream is that one of those GIs pulled the "plate" and that it will surface again.

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

This reminds me of a Bf 109K-4 captioned on p.153 of "Captured 109s" as having been found at Grafenwöhr (Vilseck?). Same dark camouflage without distinguishable colour shades, and no recognizable bulges on the left fuselage side. Very sharp swastika with glossy surface - seems to be a "Abziehbild" (decal).

Regards

Roland

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Hello,
I actually did not pay attention to its being an Erla built K-4. I am glad that you liked it.

Mike,

Thats the reason I posted the photo. I can not say anything for the glare, but dont you think its position is too low for the data plate?

Batur

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

RolandF,

I am not certain, but I believe that the darkly colored Bf 109 to which you are referring is the same one I published in color in AIRFOIL #1. Its location, as noted on the sourced USAF color movie, was Frankfurt-Rhein Main. Apparently an Erla-built G-10, this unmarked aircraft featured the square refined cowling return, large wing bumps, a short tail wheel leg, and a Werknummer across its wooden fin and rudder in what I have designated, “Position 3.”

Regarding the shiny metal rectangle below this new K-4’s cockpit, I have documented the positions of Bf 109 factory ID tags in my database, and this one fits in nicely with the vast majority produced by Erla.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

It's not necessarily too low. In fact, main plates fitted to some 109Es and earlier types were positioned even lower (and also further forward). I doubt pilots and crew even noticed these plates. (Allied soldiers were another matter!) Their location was of no particular consequence. As mentioned above, various positions related to maker and production type/series were used. Now, taking the guessing game further . . . what if main plates on 109Ks were typically over-painted? This would perhaps explain why these plates do not "jump out" of period photos. And going further, what if the plate in this picture was already removed? What would appear there, but lighter, unpainted/primed fuselage skinning. Given the propensity of GIs for souvenir gathering (and the size and apparent leisure of this group), such a grab is not beyond possible. We certainly know that many plates landed in the pockets of the victors.

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Steve,

it was this one - http://www.kecay.com/images/Atelier%...y/Me109/17.jpg - I was referring to. This photo in original is in colour? Most interesting.

Regards

Roland

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Is it possible to establish that it's the same plane in both photos (W.Nr.)? If it's not the same plane, then it appears to be an identical twin. From what I can see, the photo in the profile book does not reveal a data plate (overpainted or just not there?).

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Hello all,

I am certain these are one in the same. Both 109’s have the same components: large wheel bumps, short tail wheel, no markings, and dark camouflage. However, the clincher is the same pillbox is present on the beam in the background and the main wheels are close to the shallow drainage ditch.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Allowing that it is the same plane, the mystery rectangle either came or went between photos. Judging by the landscape, seems the bird itself moved too.

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

First a correction. My previous posting should read, “the same pillbox is present on the berm in the background.”

Stephen, you are correct. On my color photo of this Bf 109 G-10, the small silvery rectangle visible on Mr. Searl’s B&W view (at the upper corner of the square refined cowling return) cannot be seen. I believe this a function of the angle and the darkness of my color slide, or maybe a GI took the plate? There are too many matching points in the photos for them not to be the same aircraft.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Hello,

to me the photo is sensational. I had always been told (and until now believed) that there has never been a K-4 by Erla. There is another photo of a K-4 with an Erla cowling on p. 44 in Poruba's and Mol's JaPo book on Me 109 K camouflage and marking. I had taken that aircraft for what it was but thought it must have been the result of exchanging the cowling in the field, which should have been easy apart from adapting the port fuselage bulge to the Erla cowling. Now this odd theory can be abandoned.
I wonder where Steven Sheflin's other K-4 by Erla can be found.

Regards,
klemchen

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Another Erla K-4/R6 is documented with BAL acceptance flight from February 16, 1945. It was the W.Nr. 570 362. I gave Mr. Prien this information in the beginning of the 90's and he used it for his publication to the Bf 109F-K.

Yes, the Erla K-4/R6 had the same engine cowling like the Erla G-10 (without the chin bulges). It seems it was the planned style for all K-4's but Erla got the tools alone.

Interesting too that mmoustaf mentioned the picture in his posting from December 12, 2008 .... unfortunately in the wrong forum - the allied forum.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

question...

You are mentioning that Elra built K-4's did not have Chin Bulges...if this is true, how did they bypass the extra space for the return oil lines on the 605D engine?

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Through a complete redesign of the lower cowl which managed to enlarge and deepen it just enough to allow keeping smooth contours.

It is a quite well known topic, being enlightened at first by Jean-Claude Mermet and further deepened by others.

The appearance of the Erla G-10s was so "perfect" that only at some viewing angles the new contours of the lower nose section could be noticed, this resulting the wrong identifications of G-10/AS for several years.

Here it is how I explained that in my last book:

http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/ANRCM-80.jpg
http://win.150gct.it/public/veltro/ANRCM-81.jpg

I guess my friend Rasmussen will be able to supply more details.

Hope it helps

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

One more step in the documentation of Erla-produced K-4's. These fuselages appear to be the Erla produced K-4/R6 type. Please note the arrows indicating the MW hatch on the starboard side and the Erla-type bulge on the port side of two of the fuselages. Also, the fact the photo was taken near Plauen probably indicates the assemblies were on their way to an Erla assembly facility.


Photo caption: "...photograph...taken on April 17, 1945, near Plauen, Germany, reveals at least fifty fuselages which failed to reach their final assembly point."

Note: The attached photo is from Messerschmitt "O-Nine Gallery", by Thomas Hitchcock, Monogram Aviation Publications, 1973(OOP), page 16.

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

The last number in the werk Nr appears to be a 5....570 375. Amazing what you can do with photoshop tools. Here it is again using the shadow/highlight filter....

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

Hello,

the contribution by Ferdinando D'Amico on the various DB 606 AS/D cowlings encourages me to post here what I call "my big Erla cowling problem", with a few more remarks about the background, which at the same time can be viewed as questions asking for confirmation or rejection. In advance I apologize for being somewhat lengthy.
The Regensburg Me 109 K cowling (Mermet type 100) was still pretty much based on the Me 109 F cowling. The lower cowling was basically the same, except that a deeper oil cooler was inserted and the so-called chin bumps were added. In particular, it was symmetrical. The upper cowling halves were asymmetrical because the large DB 603 supercharger did no longer fit inside the DB 605 A cowling. Therefore the port upper half had to be reshaped to accommodate it, and at that occasion the bump over the breech of the port MG 131 was made integral to the cowling half. At the same occasion also the bump over the starboard MG 131 was made integral. Behind these integral bulges two shallow elliptical blisters were attached to the fuselage sides (accompanied by a widened so-called weapons cover in front of the windshield); these extended downward only to slightly above the wing fillets. Since the rear part of the upper port cowling half was wider than a normal DB 605 A cowling but the port lower cowling was not, what some author has called "an untidy construction" was employed for the transition of the upper half to the lower part behind the exhaust stubs. The forward part of the upper cowling remained the same as for the DB 605 A; on starboard this part extended backward to the normal panel line, while on port that panel line had to be moved forward some length because of the larger bulge for the supercharger. Because of combining the normal forward part with the wider integrated bulges the shape of the upper cowling contained some concave portions.
Since these were not aerodynamically optimal, Erla redesigned the whole cowling. The new cowling (Mermet type 110) did not have any concave curvatures; that is why the gun throughs from the side appear much narrower as before. In order to avoid the "untidy construction" aft of the port exhausts, the lower cowling was made wider on port and thus became asymmetrical. As a consequence, the port blister on the fuselage side behind the engine compartment had to keep about the same distance from the original fuselage side over the entire height of the fuselage side; that is why its rear edge could no longer be elliptical but had to become vertical. This construction must have demanded also a new forward port wing fillet.
That the lower half of the forward cowling ring (immediately behind the spinner) had to be widened and deepened on its lower sides has been pointed out before by other contributors. It was probably also deepened slightly in the middle, so the lower cowling line between spinner and oil cooler would appear slightly bulgier than on other 109s. Ferdinando D'Amico has drawn it that way, and I think it can be seen weakly on some photos. Some time ago somebody showed me a Messerschmitt drawing comparing the lower cowling lines of the "Me 109 K" and of other109s. Since the lower line of the Regensburg K was essentially the same as that of the "normal" F/G, the drawing must have shown the lower line of the Erla cowling. The "K" lower line was about 1 or 2 cm lower than the other one over its entire length, until it met the underside of the forward wing fillets (which also were forming the rear part of the bottom engine cover). When I later asked that person to show me that drawing again, he could not find it among his lots of Me 109 stuff, so I cannot say more about it.
This is where "my big problem" is entering the scene: The Erla cowling also got a new oil cooler bath. Many people have claimed that the radiator underneath was shallower but wider than the Fo 987 of other G-10s and K-4s, but I doubt this. I admit that the oil cooler of the Erla cowling appeared shallower than that of a "normal" G-10/K-4, but this could as well have other reasons: Assuming that a Fo 987 type radiator was installed in exactly the same position with respect to the engine as usually and that the bottom of the Erla cowling was indeed slightly lower than on other cowlings, then the oil cooler cover would appear shallower too. Another hint, however weak, that the Erla cowling was equipped with the Fo 987 is given by the famous Messerschmitt drawing of an Erla G-10, which was published in many places, e.g. in the booklet on the various Me 109 G cowlings by Jean Claude Mermet. Although quite crude in some details, that drawing is very precise with respect to the basic outlines, and the front opening of the oil cooler on it has a width corresponding to about 46 cm. For comparison, the duct of the Fo 827/870 oil cooler of earlier Gs was 462 mm wide at the base and 448 mm at the top, and the Fo 987 must have been similar. Of course this correspondence may be due to the crudeness of the drawing. I also tried to determine the width of the oil cooler by taking measurements on a photo that is showing an Erla G-10 exactly from the front by relating it to the length of a propeller blade (1.5 m) and to the wing span (9.92 m). Because the propeller was closer to the photographer than the oil cooler it yielded a width smaller than 46 cm, and because the wings were further from the photographer they yielded a greater width. Unless the exact distance of the photographer from the aircraft is known, this method cannot be refined to give a precise answer.
My main argument is that it seems highly improbable that at that stage of a losing war the logistics situation would be aggravated by introducing yet another type of radiator. Of course this can be said about a new type of cowling as well, but Erla were making their cowlings themselves. I do not know this for sure but I imagine that this does not hold for their oil coolers as well and that they had to order these from some subcontractors. If somebody could confirm this, I would consider my problem as very probably solved; otherwise it would remain open.
There are two more questions: On photos of Erla G-10s I could not detect the small vertical strut in the front of the oil cooler that was there on other Me 109 F/G/Ks. Finally, I have come to know a number of names of Messerschmitt engineers but never heard of the creative engineers at Erla, who not only constructed the most advanced Me 109 cowling but before that had designed the Erla cockpit hood, which became common for all late 109s.

Again apologizing for being so lengthy,
klemchen

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

The answer is quite simple ... Erla was an so-called "Nachbaufirma" without an own design department. There was an department to adapt the Messerschmitt drawings for specific conditions in Leipzig but not more. The leader of this department was the known Franz Xaver Mehr (he constructed some light prewar-oneseater). Erla Leipzig got the tools for the well known cowling but it wasn't developed by Erla.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bf 109K Data Plate Location
 

So why didn´t the other production sites at Vienna and Regensburg switch to these improvements?
On the other hand, at least the Mtt Regensburg production lines at Waldwerk Hagelstadt and KZ Flossenbürg were anything else than "sophisticated" production sites so the older jigs and tools would be easier to use by the unskilled workers there...

Regards

Fran