Azure blue
 

Hi,

Can someone tell me when Azure Blue was introduced in the Mid East?

Alex

Re: Azure blue
 

Hi Alex,
From fighting colours by bowyer, Pg96, fighters in the desert.

' the middle east (i.e. desert) camouflage was approved on august 22, 1941.......
....... undersides being sprayed azure blue.'

cheers
jerry

Re: Azure blue
 

Hi Jerry,

Cheers. All my books/files are packed away ready for a house move.

Alex

Re: Azure blue
 

Azure Blue was allocated an official RAF stores number in December 1940. This followed the use of a similar colour created in the Middle East for local use, as supplied to the UK authorities on 21 November 1940 with a request for its official adoption.

So the actual use of Azure Blue (or a close match) considerably predated the issue of the Air Ministry Order officially approving its use, which (IIRC) was in August 1941. Apparently Sky Blue was also used around this time, although the wartime colour appears to be too pale and the prewar colour of the same name looks much more likely (if rather odd!). The MUs in the Nile Delta also used the darker colour Mediterranean Light Blue for undersides. The AMO in 1941 should be seen as regularising these practices rather than introducing them, as more normal in the UK.

I refer you to Issue 3 of Scale Aircraft Modelling, where Ian Huntley discusses early Middle East colours, and the recent On Target Special No.2, Britain Alone, where Paul Lucas has three chapters on the subject.

Re: Azure blue
 

Hi,
I agree, azure blue was around in 1940, (according to C&M Sam No:2), named on or about 4th december, by the RAE,
often wonder why name a colour in dec 40 and then wait nine months to introduce it.
always an interesting subject C&M.
I often think it would be nice to own one of the wartime AID colour card booklets, or at least have access to one.
cheers
Jerry

Re: Azure blue
 

Hi,

Thansk for the reposnses guys.

Jerry,

What is the AID colour card booklet?

I am having a discussion about the colour of the top decking of the Bristol Bulldogs with my publisher. We are trying to determine the correct shade for the Dark Green and NIVO.

Would this booklet have the answer?

Alex

Re: Azure blue
 

Hi Alex,
AID colour card booklet,
Never actually seen one myself, but apparently they were WW2 colour chart booklets, I was told bit like the colour charts you get at the diy for dulux/crown/etc paints, but cards.
The colour cards were for use by the a/c manufacturers and repairers / paint firms, etc to get the correct shade as specified by the AID , ( air inspection directorate , [think this is right name] ).
Never had time to find out if the PRO/IWM/RAFM/R-R, etc , have any in their archives.
I imagine one would fetch a good price on e bay !!
even if it were a bit faded & tattered !!
Cheers
Jerry

Re: Azure blue
 

Certainly a set of the 1930 British Standards exist, for they were studied by Mike Starmer for his British Army camouflage series, and were recently posted on the net by W.S.Marshall. Unfortunately I've lost my connection, but it was on the airwarfareforum board, and at least one other I am quite sure that the other wartime standards exist too, though I haven't seen them myself. From his text, Paul Lucas has.

The point about Azure Blue is that it was in use: it just took the AM nine months to regularize it in an AMO. However, other colours were prepared without ever, it seems, getting into use or even being seen in an AMO.

I believe that Dark Green never changed its shade until the introduction of the Tornado into RAF service. The current Dark Green is certainly lighter and less olive than its predecessor.

There have been a number of sources giving guidance for NIVO. Ray Rimmel, in Scale Models Extra "Scale Colour" gives it as Methuen 27F3. It is usually described as being close to Light Slate Grey 26E3 (or slightly bluer and lighter) but Dark Sea Green 27(E-F)4 and Sea Green 27E(2-3) seem equally close. If your publisher doesn't understand Methuen, an approximate Munsell equivalent is 6G/3.5/0.5. Some recent research has suggested it was lighter than this, and Dark Slate Grey was adopted for FAA use after seeing how effective Nivo was on Heyfords over the sea. Ian Gazely might be able to cast more light on that.

I have found my printing of the 1930 BSC - it says www.airwarfareforum.com/upld/img/O-1082626102-84GKiri@.jpg. But it doesn't work for me now. The other was Hyperscale, so I'll bet it is still on there.

Re: Azure blue
 

hi graham,

i posted this on the board, just clicked your link and it still works.


john

Re: Azure blue
 

Hi Graham,
I agree with the possible use of azure after nov 40, and definitely with other colours in use.
one of many stories :-
I spoke to an ex raf guy who once built a blenheim out of three 'wrecks' at a UK airfield for use in the ME.
They didn't have the right colours, so they mixed them on site, as best that they could !
C&M a very interesting subject.
Cheers
Jerry

Re: Azure blue
 

hello Alex,

Have you got "British Aviation Colours of WW2 the official Camouflage, Colours and Markings of RAF Aircraft, 1939-45"" it was in the RAF Museum series.

Full (AFAIK) detailed Air Min Orders from April 39 through to October 44.

I have vol 3, so do not know what is in vols 1&2, or if there were others in the series.

Point being that in the back of this vol 3 there is a "MAP Standard Aircraft Colours 1939-1945" colour chart.

The colours are somewhat lighter in shade than the ones given in the link above, could they be a copy I wonder ?

Anyway I will scan and send to you.

Hope you do not have to move far.

Anyone know of the other vols in this series ?

All for now.

Alex

Re: Azure blue
 

Alex,

Vol 3 is the only one on camoflage.

They are a series of books put out by thr RAF Museum. Other books that I know of are the Spit V manual, Hurricane II manual, Lancaster manual, Mosquito manual and another on rigging WW1 a/c.

Re: Azure blue
 

That is a very useful book, and well worth having. I used to rely upon the library copy at work, until it disappeared. Then I found it was no longer in print.... but I managed to get one from a second-hand dealer. However, it only contains a selection though the most important) of the AMOs, and indeed a selection of the colours, and the AMOs themselves only tell part of the story. It does provide a vital solid framework around which the more controversial features can be studied.

The colour chips are those appropriate for the RAF in WW2, and the 1930 BSC chart is generally not appropriate for this, though it is very useful in clearing up minor details or for British Army camouflage in the early years. I mentioned it because I thought it would include NIVO - sadly, it doesn't. I wouldn't be too fussy about minor differences in shade or hue between proper chips and your computer monitor. Anything on a monitor can only be taken as a guide.

Re: Azure blue
 

As Kutscha said, the book, "British Aviation Colours of World War Two" was simply volume 3 of the RAF Museum series of books. For your info, Vol. 1 was the Spitfire V manual, and Vol. 2 was the Hurricane II manual. Vol. 4 was "British military aircraft of World War One" -- a rigging manual on some of the a/c used by the RFC/RAF in WW1 -- and so on....to at least Vol. 9, which is the last one I have.