Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hello,

I'm trying to determine the identity of the following photo which recently appeared on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...romZR40QQfviZ1

It shows a Ju88A, 4U+UL, from 4.(F)/123 belly landed somewhere in the West during 1940-41. I thought that this was probably an a/c that FL at Langendiebach Germany on 27.5.40, after being hit by flak on a recon mission over France, but one of our researchers says that he thinks he saw a photo of this a/c auctioned that indicated that this was at Paris-Orly AF, France, either during the Battle of Britain or later in 1941 during The Blitz. Does anyone know anything about this aircraft, the date, location or circumstances of this incident?

Thanks,

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

If 27th May 1940 is the date you are after, there is an entry in "The Battle of France -- then and now" by Peter Cornwell that mentions a Ju88A of 3.(F)/123 (and contrary to your note, 'L' indicates 3rd Staffel, not 4th). "Forced-landed at Langendiebach damaged by flak during reconnaissance between Amiens and Clermont. Uffz E. Riehle badly wounded. Aircraft damaged but repairable."

Hope this helps,
George

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hi Larry and George,

Must be February 1942 or later as this is D-5 version, as it was not produced or entered service before that time.

*You both need some polishing up on the Ju 88 series aircraft recognition skills ...

Best regards
ed

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hi, folks...

Sorry, just a little confused... how do we know this is a D-5 particularly?

On the link provided by Larry, there's a Kopierschutz ticket superimposed across the tail, which is most likely where the Werk.Nr. would've been displayed. So is there a clearer photo available to someone that shows a Werk.Nr. that would confirm D-5 status? I agree it has all the hallmarks of an A-4 airframe, so presuming this is the corresponding reconnaissance version, the sub stype - based on what we see following Larry's link - could as easily be an earlier Ju88D-1, which according to the Squadron/Signal Junkers Ju88 in Action, part 1 publication, first entered service in early 1941.

Regards...

Paul

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Paul. You are missing the whole point. I am not going to write an whole essay explaining why I say this is so and so, D-5 or not. This is definately not year 1940 or early 1941, as the gentleman abowe are speculating about (and then putting some question mark on the accuracy, the quality or the ability of the ´expert´ researchers of the EOE project - see another thread here on TOCH - but they themselves have to answer for that). The D-1´s possibly exised more on paper in early 1941 (apart from testing examples) but from March 1941 the poduction version was still the D-2, by May 1941 only a few A-4 / D-1´s´s had been made - and none I know of flew in ´The Blitz´ over England prior to June 1941 (so far as I know anyway). And in June 1941 I am yet to find there are or were any D-1 lost at all. Only in July 1941 on the Eastern Front do we find a loss for D-1.

We both agree this has all the hallmarks of an A-4 airframe. However I say this is possibly likely LATER than the ´early standard A-4´, possbly even A-4/trop, D-5/trop or D-1/trop. (Late rudder with aerodynamic balance on top, has slant mid-post in upper main front canopy window, has ejector stubs for the wing anti-ice hot-air on nacelles, flame dampers, long wings, etc.) I agree there might possibly be one more detail obscured by the KOPIESCHUTZ ´sticker´ on fuselage top surface. So one has just too see if someone here won this and can put us straight. W.Nr. usually was painted on the missing part of fin (of 4U+UL) but often not painted or pained over.

Just looking at the Props I see VDM thin cord meal props but the D-1 usually had VS II wooden props, right? However if this is D-1, it does not match the data I have found out over the years. And finally Brian Filley´s Squadron/Signal books are fair to good but far from perfect in many ways.

Best regards
ed

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Oh I imagine we all could use some help in IDing the Ju 88, Ed.

But, if you had read my posting a bit more closely you would have seen that I was responding to the date and not the aircraft type. I had noticed in passing that the a/c had an A-4 vertical tail, but I was trying to help Larry with the date 27 May 1940, and simply didn't worry about the a/c type. So, thank you for your comments on that.

But, since you called it a Ju 88 D-5, what makes it so? Especially since you didn't answer Paul's question about it.

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hi...

Ed, thanks for your additional posting. I understand better now, as you've explained the sub-types and entry into service aspects, but I do still think my question is pertinent in that if someone makes a seemingly definitive statement as in this case, that this particular aircraft is a D-5, then the confirmation of that - not the reasoning behind the person's conclusion - should be shared. That was what my question was asking you to do. In other words, I have no problem with your reasoning; that is logical and sound enough. It is, however, the incontrovertible proof, if you or anyone else has it, that I was asking for.

If you had said in your original posting, I think, or I believe this to be a D-5 because.... etc, then that would've been fine, as it would've allowed a degree of leeway, in case it turned out to be a different outcome to that expected. It is your apparent confidence that this is definitely a D-5 that I find a little unusual. I would not seek to diminish your obvious knowledge of sub-type production and entry into service dates and timescales, but I have seen several highly unusual hybrids of Ju88s over the years to believe that there is probably room for manoeuvre here. You may well be proved 100% correct in the long run, but personally, I think unevidenced statements can be rather misleading, and ultimately hinder, not help, the matter.

Kindest regards...

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

George: Third paragraf of my second post explains the difference of the D-1 vs D-5 to Paul (re what can be seen in this photo anyway). You should have mentioned the A-4 variant too, as that alone dismisses this as dating from 1940. On 27.05.40 no long-wing Ju 88´s had reached the Luftwaffe - the first were delivered in July 1940 - and no production A-4 / D-1, D-5´s existed before 1941 (as explained).

Paul: You are quite right in all espects in your post. I am quite happy if proven wrong - and say now that this aircraft ´fits the descripion for D-5´ - and whould very much like to see the un-altered image in question. Yes, there were many hi-birds but many are also mis-indentified regarding time period or variant.

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Larry,

While looking through 1942 losses I kept an eye open for 4U+UL, but unfortunately the 3.(F)/123 losses did not include fuslage codes. I found 4 crashlanded D5's, 2 D1's and 1 A4 of the unit. These were shown as being at Fl.Pl Lannion, Morlaix, Rennes, Creil and Brest-Sud, however none of these seem to link to an airfield by Perros, France as the E-Bay advert indicates being the location of the crash site,

Regards

Brian Bines

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hello,

Perros (the right name is "Perros-Guirec") in Brittany is located only 10 km North of Lannion airdrome ... so, may be the Ju 88 couldn't reach Lannion and did an emergency landing some miles before.

Pierre

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Pierre,

Thanks for that, the two I noted are Ju88D5 w.n. 430005 crashlanded Fl.Pl Lannion following Fiendbeschuss 40% on 3-5-1942, and on 16-6-42 Ju88D5 w.n. 1770 65% also following Fiendbeschuss crashlanded Fl.Pl Lannion,

Brian Bines

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hello,

I have a loss of 3(F)/123 in the Finistere in Brittany.
Loss 28/09/1943

Plouigneau en Morlaix. Ju 88 D-1. (WNr. 430831)3(F)/123
(FF). Lt. Wittich, Otto.
Hptm. Stampe, Helmut, né le 13.02.1908. Gruft 11 Grab 80. Mont-de-Huisnes.
Uffz. Dejon, Franz, né le 25.06.1918. Gruft 11, Grab 40. Mont-de-Huisnes.
Gefr. Dahlmanns, Heinz, né le 22.02.1922. Gruft 11, Grab 20. Mont-de-Huisnes.

Dan

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hello,

Thanks for the help with this. It appears that under any likely scenario, that this is not from my 1939-40 period of interest, so is not relevant to the EOE research project. Win some, lose some.

Regards,

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hello,

I've now resolved this one (Ju88D-5 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123). Ed North was right, this is a photo of a D-5, and Brian Bines provided the identification. I've received the original photo, and it has a handwritten caption on the back: "...einem motor von England nach H??? 3 Mai 1942,” so Brian's entry above, " Ju88D5 w.n. 430005 crashlanded Fl.Pl Lannion following Fiendbeschuss 40% on 3-5-1942" is correct.

I've got almost US $50.00 invested in this print, which was purchased because I thought it related to the 1940 Western Campaign, so I'm most willing to sell it again for my cost. I will also provide 600 dpi jpg scans gratis to anyone on this board who can use this excellent photo in their research projects. This gives us an aircraft code that the unit loss reports doesn't provide, so this must be useful to some other researchers.

Contact me on the TOCH Private message board if you want a copy gratis, or wish to purchase the original print. If my board fills up, wait a few hours and try again. I'll try and keep enough space cleared off to accommodate any messages.

Regards,

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Hi Larry,

Thanks for your update. I certainly had this accident also but it was just one of many, many, possible candidates. I am interested in getting a 600 dpi copy and I am leaving my e-mail adress in your PM box. Feel free to contact.

Best regards
ed

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Would this help?
From WT intercepts
3/F123 18.06-21.57 one aircraft controlled by Lannion made a weather recce flight over the SW Approaches. It gave a weather report ar 19.05 and at 21.28 signalled enemy fighters. Reported engines damaged adding that it would be forced to make a belly landing, expecting to arrive at 21.55. At 21.57 control signalled everything ready for your pancake landing.
308 Sqn. at Exeter was the unit which intercepted the Ju88
HTH
Tony K

Re: Looking for info on force-landed Ju88A 4U+UL of 3.(F)/123
 

Please add the date 3 May 1942 to my last post, apologies, finger trouble and its also an age thing !
Tony K