I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Hello all
I would very much like to have some CD format with as much as possible Luftwaffe losses for stuka, zerstorer, jagd and kampfgruppen units.
I am willing to pay for these infos
I am particularilyy interested in ZG, Stg, KG and JG losses for 1939-1944
Anyone having these informations please send me a quick note at Ardeleanubogdan@hotmail.com
Regards

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Hi

the e-m address you list comes up as invalid, I can help you so please send me a private message

Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Bogdan,

If you find something like this be careful - there has been one unscrupulous individual who has been peddling a very old copy (from about 12+ years ago) of my database from time to time, not only ripping me off, but frankly the purchaser as well because that old file is practically worthless, the data being very poorly formatted and far from complete.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Bogdon

Its not the rubbish produced by Jim P but scans of the original QM 6 docs

Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Tony,

I dare say that when it was produced initially it was quite good but obviously times and methods of data storage/retrieval move on, as well as more info becoming available. I presume that is what you meant to say?

As regards the CD(s) are they generally available and
if so are they the full QM6 lists? What would the cost be for them. I only ask as I suspect many would find them more useful than the microfilmed copies!

Regards

David

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Actually the microfiche or -film copies are better as far as quality is concerned. You can zoom in better and make out some of the unreadable data. The PDF files from the Bundesarchiv are nice but some of them are totally unreadable unlike their microfiche counterparts. (I have both)

This is just my five cents,

Norbert

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

It very nice to have 15+ years of very hard work on the part of myself and George Morrison classified as rubbish. Thank you. I'm humbled by your praise.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Norbert

The microfilms at IWM are the master copy and much clearer that the copy they gave to Bundesarchiv, so scans of IWM films pages are nearly 100% readable

Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Side note, posting your E-mail address in the clear negates all the protection we can give your privacy, especially considering SPAM E-mail. Please don't blame TOCH! for the potential increase in SPAM E-mail after doing so.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

An unfortunate choice of words in respect of the initial work done by Jim P. Perhaps you could qualify your comments...??? You appear to have ignored his comment in post #7.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Dear Jim P.,

I do not know your database and how good or bad it is. Nevertheless, I wish to send you a word of support. It is easy to judge, less easy is to endeavour in the time-consuming (and sometimes frustrating) hobby of historical research. Unpoliteness seems to be a sign of the times...

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Pelagonia

And the suggestion by Jim P that I was some type of crook!!

Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

I don't think Jim's comments were aimed at you Tony and this has all the hallmarks of being an unfortunate misunderstanding. I have a feeling that Jim's comment relate to a CDr which appeared on eBay a while back and this turned out to be his fledgling lists being sold without credit and at silly prices. I for one fell for the sale and although I didn't pay too much for the CDr, the seller was far from clear about his source. I can also confirm that even though I know Tony personally, he did not/or was behind the eBay auction...

cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Tony,

+1 for the words written by Peter Evans. Jim P was badly ripped off some time ago, as Peter has outlined. Perhaps you were not aware of that - other members are, as information about this scam against him have been comprehensively covered in a thread some time ago on this forum. I think it is simply a misunderstanding on your part, and you should see it as such.

Hope this helps

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

John

I was very angry when I read the post by Jim P. I have the Cd in question and as Peter Evans says he was glad it didn't cost too much. Anyway thanks for your post, let's just just forget it.

Peter, I know you have moved recently and so I don't know your new address but contact me if you still don't have the QM 6 losses and you may just get lucky

Regards

Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

I feel I must defend Jim P. This is the comment made by Tony Jones “Its not the rubbish produced by Jim P but scans of the original QM 6 docs”. If I were Jim P, I would have the right to feel insulted. Jim P has shared his work (and George’s) with me in the past and it was one of the first serious attempts to organize data on the Luftwaffe in a digital format.

The original basis was the QM loss records plus virtually every serious publication that contained Luftwaffe aircraft and crew member information plus Fb. and other primary documentation. It has been a huge undertaking and the format and content have evolved and grown through the years. IMHO it is the best and most complete effort of this type to date. To see this kind of work dismissed with such an offhand comment is not in good form.

Others have attempted to paste together databases from multiple individual sources, but IMHO, you cannot even know what questions to ask until you have the experience of having worked on a project like this for a while. My effort has already required over 10,000 hours and new data becomes available daily, plus editing and errata correction. If someone pirated a copy of my efforts from 10 plus years ago, it would be much less than what I have today, but still would not be rubbish, as there was nothing to compare with it at that time. If there are specific issues to be addressed that is a different matter, but probably not timely, if one is working with a hopelessly outdated version.

I don’t think Tony gets it, if he paid for a pirate copy stolen from Jim P’s earlier work, his criticism really is out of place to identify Jim P’s work as rubbish. Further; “And the suggestion by Jim P that I was some type of crook!”. This is another indication that Tony apparently does not get it. Jim P identified the unscrupulous individual as the one who was selling unauthorized copies of his work. So, Tony, unless you are selling copies of Jim P’s work; he is not referring to you. However, any distribution, even if it is free, of someone else’s work without their permission would seem to me to be unethical.

IMHO an apology is called for. In any case, Jim P. I appreciate your efforts and also thank you for your generosity in sharing .

Best regards,

Artie Bob

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Thank you for posting that, ArtieBob. I second those sentiments, and I believe the majority of this community does too.

Leon Venter

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

ArtieBob,
You are spot on in that you have said in post #16. Jim P was quite clear in who his criticism was directed at.

Tony,
Let's stop muckin' about here. You were very angry when you read the post by Jim P? Well go back and read it again properly and see what he really says (or read paragraph 4 of ArtieBob's post). Apologise for your ill-advised comment calling Jim P's work 'rubbish. It can be done - are you man enought to do so?

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Ok...

While making a comment on E-mail addresses and editing the F-word upon a friendly request, I seem to have missed the ugly brew that was developing. Is that a case of missing the forrest through the trees?

As I indeed see it Tony made an offer to share his QM6 file, and Jim P made a general comment about his old work being sold outside of his control. At that point the misunderstanding starts.

If I understand correctly Jim didn't aim his comment at Tony, but Tony did comment rather harshly on Jim's work.

Gentlemen, if we can settle that particular issue, the rest is peanuts and we can go on with the regular business of sharing information.

Please consider all words written and take a moment to reflect.

As a side note, the original post was something that didn't feel right to me having been posted in the regular Luftwaffe forum, and upon further thought should have been moved to the Wanted section. I need not repeat that I allowed it to get out of hand in the first place.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

I'm outta here if the censorship is such that a word in everyday use has been changed, and which conveys my feeling about how badly Jim P has been treated by someone who called all his original work rubbish. You should be getting after Tony Jones, not me.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Hello Everyone,

an archivist at the Imperial War Museum can offer a DVD of PDF'ed scans from the 12 reels of loss lists (from 11928 FER/MISC/MCR 18, held at the IWM) for GBP40.

I recently purchased a copy of this disk (and, at the same time, had a chance to view the original microfilm), and I believe that this is the one referred to by Tony.

'some comments about the contents of this disk -

(a) the quality/resolution of the scans is too low for anyone wanting to seriously extract data from the returns. Many entries are too difficult to read. This is a fault due to the limitations of the scanning process, not the quality of the original microfilm.
(b) the IWM version of the returns is incomplete for 1945.


Although it is great to have the disk, I, for one, will look to purchase microfiche copies of the returns from the BA/MA...

Cheers

Rod

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Hi Tony
The Bundesarchiv holds the original paper folios of the GQM (very large size) and made the microfiche scans from the originals.

Regards Peter

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

If you mean that there are a couple of pages missing, I think you're right. I have a microfilm copy of the 1945 reel (from before dvd was invented) but someone who had been to BA-MA sent me photocopies of two pages the IWM must have missed.

If you mean that there are no daily reports for January, a lot of March and all of April and May, then I don't think anyone has those. The reporting system in the West seems to have faltered once the Allies got across the Rhein. The separate Luftflotte 6 material (in the USA?) does have good loss data for most of 1945 but just for that Luftflotte.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Tony, I apologize if you felt my original comment was directed at you personally - it wasn't. However, as several people above have stated, some individual did sell on e-bay an ancient copy of George's and my database without our knowledge or consent. From my recollection he managed to sell at least 20 copies, and apparently you were one of the buyers. That version compared to now, should be considered 'rubbish'. This person was ripping off not only me, but the purchasers as well, because that version of our db was very far from complete and very poorly formatted. I have no idea if this person is still trying to sell this thing. My only intent was as a 'buyer beware' to Bogdan.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

At last some mature comment! Jim, have you received my email or PM?

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Hi Nick,

my impression is that fragments of loss lists from more than one source survived (which is confirmed from the ADI Captured docs lists). I have compared copies from the IWM microfilm with copies (for the same dates) from a NARA microfilm (T-321 Roll 210 OKL-402), and the reports are different copies.

As to 1945, the IWM mf is missing surviving reports (at the BA/MA) for 28 & 30 Jan, 1-9 February, and the report for 13 February.

Cheers

Rod

PS - 'was recently at TNA and managed to fully photograph all of the HW 5 report sections between late Dec '44-May '45

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

As things are settling around the original argument (the part between Jim and Tony), I'd like to address this issue.

I don't like censorship, nor changing the wording of people.

OTOH, it is good to be reminded that TOCH has a diverse community and not everyone enjoys reading this sort of language.

In this particular censorship case I thought the change was "funny" enough, and laced with some irony, perhaps a faulty approach and my lack of a good sense of humor...

But the bottom line is that I can't stop people from disagreeing with my actions. Unfortunately, my pride is such that I won't kiss a**e to keep people on TOCH!

:glomp:

So John, if you feel that the "atmosphere of censorship" is so pressing that you can't stay, I'd be sorry to see you go, but I wouldn't be stopping you nor anyone else for that matter.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Been there, done that! Well sort of ... I have photographed material from all the files of that period, applying my rigorous scholarly criteria (i.e. "ooh, that looks interesting!"). Of course, I now have no idea what I've got and nor do I have enough time to sort it all out. Digital cameras make it so easy just to amass stuff and I can't resist.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Hi, Rod

You are right in the assumprion that fragments from several different sources have survived. And the parts that survive are not consistently from the same source throughout the war.

Based on this I have in fact been able to identify which part of the system that generated the so-called summary loss lists. It is also of interest to note that some of the copies have additional comments and corrections, while others are missing these.

The explanation is straight forward, and I will illustrate this (and hopefully enlighten someone with regards to what these lists were used for... hint, hint ;-) ). The key is the Verteiler, or the distribution list, for the documents. These were not documents kept as a single copy in the vaults at RLM, but spread throughout the following units. I have bolded the copy that I have available:

1940:
Generalfeldmarschall (ie Göring)
Staatssekretär d.Luft. u. Gen.Insp.d.Lw.
Chef des Generalstabes
Lw.Führungsstab Ia op
Lw.Führungsstab Ic (Presse)
Generalquartiermeister
Generalluftzeugmeister
L.Wehr
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.(IB) (Entwurf)

1941:
Reichsmarschall (Copy 1)
Staatssekr.d.Luftf.u.Gen.Insp.d.Lw. (Copy 2)
Chef des Generalstabes (Copy 3)
Lw.Führungsstab Ia (Copy 4)
Lw.Führungsstab Ic (Presse) (Copy 5)
Generalquartiermeister (Copy 6)
Generalluftzeugmeister (Copy 7)
L.P.Chefabteilung (Copy 8. - 10.)
L.P. I/IV (Copy 11. - 12.)
L.D. (Copy 13.)
Chef für Flugsicherheit (Copy 14.)
L. E. 2 (Copy 15.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.2.Abt. (Copy 16.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (IB, II, III) (Copy 17. - 19.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (IC) (Entw. und Vorr.) (Copy 20. - 21.)


1943:
Reichsmarschall (Copy 1)
Staatssekr.d.Luftf.u.Gen.Insp.d.Lw. (Copy 2 sent to these two)
Generalluftzeugmeister (Copy 2 sent to these two)
Lw.Führungsstab Ia (Copy 3)
L.P.Chefabteilung (Copy 4. - 6.)
L.P. I/IV (Copy 7. - 8.)
Chef für Flugsicherheit (Copy 9.)
Chef Nachschub d.Lw. (2. Abt.) (Copy 10.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (IB, III) (Copy 11. - 12.)
Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (IC) (Entwurf) (Copy 13.)


These are only examples, the full overview will be posted in my upcoming article on loss reporting.

What I do think is VERY important to note here is that these lists were in fact distributed, controlled and used as can be seen by the fact that especially the Personalamt or Central personnel office gave a lot of feedback with regards to information contained in them. The distribution includes both the units that were responsible for safety (Chef für Flugsicherheit), the ones responsible for reinforcements of personnel and aircraft (Chef Nachschub d.Lw.), the people in charge of phasing in and out and evaluating aircraft models (Generalluftzeugmeister), the personnel offices (L.P.Chefabteilung and L.P. I/IV) and of course the top ranks of the high command with Görings office at the top, as well as the operative high command of the Luftwaffe.

In my opinion this further underlines the important role these documents played in all aspects of 'running' the Luftwaffe during WWII.

My hope is that we in due time will be able to follow this paper trail, and maybe identify more of the missing parts in archives or collections around the world. I am convinced that fragments especially of the 1944 parts MUST exist in former Soviet archives, as these would have been
stored in different places spread out through Berlin. It is of course possible that all 13 to 14 copies that were distributed were destroyed, but for some reason I find this unlikely (or maybe I am just hoping). I hope that someone, sometime will pull out a large file from a dusty shelf or paper bag and say ' Hmmmm interesting, loss records for the Luftwaffe... maybe I should check if anyone is interested in these' or 'Hmmmm - this file must have been misplaced - let me put it back into the RL 2 III were it should be...'

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Peter Achs

You are correct here as IWM sent the paperwork to Germany but kept the microfilm.

Due to a hard disc failure I lost your details but on a recent visit to Duxford I looked again in the relevant Speer box and there was no further mention of Gassner so this the first opportunity to tell you

Regards
Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Jim P

I just sent you a note on this board but it didn't turn up so here is version 2

I have a very "short fuse" and saw the post as "don't buy of of this guy"

When I provide anyone with items I try to make it at nil commercial gain to me i.e net cost plus postage, another reason I got incensed.
Anyway lets move on, I have sent you a separate letter of apology but found your mail box full. I relayed this to Art and he has just confirmed he has it and will pass on to you.

I am glad to have put this "to bed" with you as it was all basically 2+2=5

Regards

Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Jim P,

I tried to send you a PM unsuccessfuly, your mailbox is full.

byron

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

To come back to the original topic: I am also very interested in such a database. So:

If anyone would like to share his data as well to get back something for his activities/costs!

PS: I think there are dozens of people interested in such data. We could unite our forces, even if it is "only" money...

PPS: I am able to contribute money and my german knowledge and work, if someone out there has a defined job.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Hi

I have such a database (running on SQL Server)

I have a web based user interface (currently running on asp vbscript over IIS 6)

I need a few days off to upgrade all the old asp pages to asp.net (mainly in order to get control over the user authentication part of it)

I am interested in sharing this information, and also interested in getting more hands to work on adding additional data

What do you guys think would be a decent EULA (End User License Agreement) on such a system? A part of me want to give all the info out to the community for free, but at the same time my team and myself have spent both countless hours and a lot of hard earned cash on getting this together...

Always difficult!

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Hi

With official loss data nobody ever seems to mention the Medical Report losses 1936-end of 42. These run to many thousands, very little c/n but masses of D- WL- S7+ Stkz and Vbkz. Given the time it would be nice to tie up individual items here with the items on QM 6 reports. This would make a far better database than just QM 6.
I sent Jim K a copy of this and I stand to be corrected but some of you may have got this from Jim at some time. 1940 in particular has many unreadable items, a few pages are missing elsewhere plus the whole of 9/39-40 missing. I now have all missing individual pages (sent to Jim K in the USA) clean pages for the whole of 1940 plus the missing 9/39 - 12/39 period. I will shortly post the missing section 1939 to Jim K and if some of you in the USA "beg nicely" he might give you a copy
Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Tony, myself plus many others here on this board would be interested in what you have available.
The Medical Reports you mention, plus the GQM lists i would definately be interested in. What would the cost of these items be?

Best regs,
Steve.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

I'm kind of in the same boat as Andreas, except my db is done in MS Access versus MS SQL. Part of me wants to give our work away to the community, and there are a number of reseachers who have made use of it over the years, but another part would like to be able to recoup some of the costs of aquiring the materials for and the thousands of hours creating the beast. Not to mention that while the GQM stuff is for the most part done, there is still so much to do with other sources such as Schulen losses, FBs and published works. Its a neverending project, as I'm sure Andreas will atest to.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Steve

I need to scan all the Medical Losses and there are over 1,000 pages, including cover sheets (I don't think anyone has seen these) plus graphs, sometimes photo of a/c crash and a few smashed heads and limbs etc. This will take some time but I note your interest

Regrads

Tony

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Tony, thank you for your reply and notes.
Is the GQM lists available from you then on disc?

Rgs,
Steve.

Re: I am interested in luftwaffe losses. Can anyone sell me some info?
 

Steve

I have sent you a private message, are you the SES I sent some engine c/n data to?

Regards

tony